I don't have a need to get along with everyone, but it is more pleasant when people can debate with a measure of civility. Barry
the relevance still lies therein.... i was merely trying to say that he can no more help being nice then you could your compulsion... it's who he is
I've been having too much long overdue fun to join in over the past week. Here is my sprawling jumbled attempt to cover the main points in the two most active threads lately, this one and the 'Can't someone stop them?' thread. (Though this has become more about how people respond to posts than the post itself. I will deal with the original subject again later as i will need to start a few different threads to enable a fuller perspective of the subject matter) Also, since yesterday I've been having isp problems and can only come on briefly til it's sorted out. I don't think there's anything there anyone could argue with...yet... Are you suggesting i'm 'polluting' this forum with posts that resort to petty personal attacks {eg. posts like your purely malicious personal dig at Reizvolles i.e the 'Karen Carpenter' comment } which have no place in a forum intended for intellectual discourse? And no, i'm not talking about the occasional bit of harmless humour, but genuine attempts to defamate people's characters like Barry has done with me for openly, honestly airing views in a forum whose purpose is to do just that? Exactly, which is why ucicare has no right to attack me personally just because my 'asshole' is different to his. He was basically implying that my posts have no place in this forum, because he doesn't want to see views which challenge his own. If he had said 'i can't believe that, here is why' , that would have been perfectly acceptable to myself and the others who objected to his response, because that would have been "Barry merely expressing his opinion", as you claim his personal attack on my character equated to. Well if you want to go through life without investigating possibilities that challenge your present view of reality, that's up to you. Just don't expect your opinions on the subject to be considered of much value if you aren't even willing to entertain alternative viewpoints if only for the purpose of 'Devil's Advocate'. Outrightly ruling things out without giving them a fair chance is called 'prejudice'. Yeah, with all those silicone breasts, collagen puffed lips, frozen botoxed deathmasks and strange permashocked grimaces, you certainly catch the rest of the world's eyes. That's a bit of a strange way to take it. If you support what the criminals who have seized control of America are doing to the planet and its people (including what they are doing to America), hang your head in shame, if you don't - stand proud. Being American is not the issue, what you believe in is.Schmed put it well. I consider myself a member of the human race first and foremost, and my home is this planet.. Didn't you see this post of mine? There are a great many very patriotic American's who are in total agreement with my views. Haven't you studied the 'Patriot Acts' I & II yet? It is your America's actions which makes itself the centre stage of any current affairs discussions at this juncture we are presently experiencing. No Barry, that doesn't describe me although it would make it far easier for you (and anyone influenced by you) to just outrightly dismiss me if you were to portray me like that. I don't dislike anything for no good reason, life is too precious and short to waste on senseless hatred. I dislike what America has been doing, because it is in the hands of a corrupt bunch of criminals who care as much for the American public and their soldiers as they care about innocent Iraqis. And yes, America is more than just its politicians when the politicians are answerable to the people, but since GWBush was installed as the President, things have changed - most significantly. Two stolen elections later, and you still think the politicians are doing your bidding? I wouldn't have called UT and Reizvolles 'my equals' if i thought they were just jumping on a bandwagon, and hollowly repeating a line, because I certainly do not. The last thing i need is pseuds to promote my cause...i have and will stand alone in my views if need be, i am secure enough in my beliefs to do so without any need to surround myself with 'yes-men' who would not bolster my position...they would undermine it. I was impressed to see them both making a stand for what they believe in, and they did so with the sort of passion and conviction that comes from the heart. And the stance they took is the less popular one...the one that is more likely to invoke 'mob wrath', and so takes greater courage and independence of thought. You don't get the type of venemous derogatory comments made about you for simply airing views which differ from mine that you get for disagreeing with those who follow the government approved corporate media on things such as Barry, or 'ianbo', for example. This is why they are correct when they refer to him and his ilk as bigots. Are you referring to my post...i.e. the civilised disourse which still fell within the boundaries of legitimate rational debate? Who elected YOU to police the world wide web, telling citizens of the world what they can and cannot say about one of the world's countrys? I am human and seeing as this is a situation of such immense magnitude, affecting every single human on the planet, i have every right...and duty to provide the rest of the human race - my family - with whatever i sincerely believe to be in its best interests. You call me a 'terrorist' and yet it is me who is hysterical and paranoid? Well since you have chosen to invalidate my honest, well thought out, heartfelt opinions on things by attempting to convince people here that i am nothing more than a malicious nutcase with ulterior ('terrorist') motives , maybe i should invalidate any of your opinions by accusing you of being a propagandist working for the U.S government to spread disinformation throughout the web when you start replicating such classic Orwellian 'neocononsense' smear tactics like that. It's extremely arrogant - not to mention uncivilised - to accuse someone of being a malicious, deviant villain simply because their opinion counters yours. (Since i wrote that, ucicare has posted again, with this ironic comment...) If those (treasonous, corrupt, neocons) who have seized control of the U.S had their way, the whole world would see it differently...whether they liked it or not. The U.S. now controls the media in Iraq, and now Iraqis have the pleasure of watching Oprah Winfrey and some other American rot as well as having their Call to Prayer taken off the air, and totally bias news coverage which does not represent the vast majority of Iraqi's opinions on things. Yeah, some democracy!
First Nursey says - "It's extremely arrogant - not to mention uncivilised - to accuse someone of being a malicious, deviant villain simply because their opinion counters yours." Then Nursey cries about the , "... genuine attempts to defamate people's characters like Barry has done with me." Then Nursey calls the leaders of this country - "a corrupt bunch of criminals" "who care as much for the American public and their soldiers as they care about innocent Iraqis." "(treasonous, corrupt, neocons) who have seized control of the U.S" "the criminals who have seized control of America" Could someone run a spell check on HYPOCRITICAL please? I have no problem with someone expressing their opinions or concerns. What I do have a problem with is people who lead defamatory and malicious attacks against the elected leaders of my country. Take your own advice Nursey. Blast what they do all you want. But calling my President a "criminal" is intolerable and wrong. Barry
How about this, he's(Bush) a lying, murdering crook. Plain and simple, honest and true. America is beatutiful, and he's a disgrace against everyhitng our nation was founded on.
I agree totally. Scream away about policy, procedure, injustice, wrongs, crimes, heresies, and atrocities. I'll fight for the right of people to do that. I'll even chip in to buy the paint that goes on the protest banners. What bothers me greatly is labeling someone or some group "criminals" when they have been tried and convicted of nothing. The court of public opinion may have the power to indict with their accusations, but it not impartial enough to convict. I hope everyone can see the difference. Barry
They lied to start a war. They trampled roughshod over the United Nations and International Law. They have committed warcrimes. They have stolen two elctions. And they are committing treason towards the United States, destroying the American Constitution...the very foundations of the country you profess to love so dearly. I call that criminal.
1. Make sure that you know that I actual like you, I just am pissed off about some of the off the wall things you post. 2. The rant above pisses me off. You have no right to state the above as facts. If that is your opinion, hey, more power to you. I'll still say you are wrong, but I'll defend your right to have that opinion. You are stating the above as a God honest fact. I totally challenge the validity of the above statements. 3. Your posting of ridiculous things undermines the credibility of everything else you say. How could you possibly even hint that the US Government caused that horrible earthquake and Tsunami? Don't you realize that such an act would be the great single act of terrorism in the history of the world? And then you say that the US Government is controlling the wind waves and thoughts of people with radio waves. Come on! You say crap like that, and then wonder why I reject your possibly valid accusations. Just try to be rational and consistent in your posts. I don't agree with Schmed's opinion above, but at least he was not bizarre in what he says. He could be right. The stuff you have posted lately has no possibility of being accurate. It would be hysterical if it was not so serious. Barry
actually barry when she states that the US violated international law as well as it's own (the detainees at Guantanamo Bay) and not to mention the accusation of warcrimes are both highly based on facts, a simple example of which being their continued use of depleted uranium shells which over the last decade in Iraq have caused cancer rates to go up 1000% - that's illegal, cluster bombs - illegal Abu Gharib prison scandal - illegal i've listed for you three things your own governement scarcely denies so i don;t see why you should have trouble accepting them
Aren't people being prosecuted for the war crimes and the prison scandal? Didn't the government admit error? How does that make the Government so deceitful and corrupt? Barry
It may bother you, but it STILL 'falls within the bounds of legitimate rational debate'. Angrily attempting to demonise and silence me for having different opinions does not. I hope everyone can see the difference... Yes it is my opinion, and i could back it up with an abundance of undisputed facts which would suggest as much, and some of it ('trampling roughshod over the U.N. and International Law', 'committing warcrimes', for example) are undisputable facts. As for the way i presented the post, (minimally) : I saw your reply and wanted to mention those points, but due to the large phonebill i'm currently running up made it as brief as possible (i have disconnected to type this reply). There is absolutely no harm in investigating unconventional ground. And i make it clear that i am not claiming to stand on what i consider solid ground when i present such hypothesis'. Just because i'm open minded and unafraid to explore a large number of possibilities (that at first glance might seem very far fetched to someone who hasn't 'thought outside the bubble' to much degree, but when viewed in the context of certain undisputed and often quite incredible facts that aren't widely known to the public, don't seem quite so ludicrous after all) doesn't mean all my information is based on such shakey premises. I encourage everyone to think for themselves, and not be afraid to question everything we so automatically take for granted. Don't ever take as truth anything you can't properly grasp for yourself, but remember - an inquisitive mind that is not bound by convention is the kind that makes the most inspirational discoveries. Keep your head in the stars and your feet on the ground. Well, when you don't even acknowldge the factual parts of my hypothesis' - the bits which can't be disputed as fact, then no wonder the parts i am only alluding to completely escape your understanding. You're frequently willing to argue black is white...just have a look at the 'Israel Spies on America' thread for an example of that. And for someone who quotes from the bible as if it is fact, don't you think you are being a little....inconsistant?
in THAT specific instance they admitted fault, regardless it's still a war crime among many many others, thus making nurseys statement in fact valid, do i dare mention Guantanamo Bay where prisoners are mysteriously dying in US custody (no trials no lawyers no shred of the justice system, arbitrary confinement is a privilege invoked only by totalitarian governments), wonder what kind of illegal fun the CIA is having over there I was not using that example to prove deceit and corruption but to fortify Nursey’s post which you dismissed as a blanket statement that had no material backing barry you seem to be focusing on more broad accusations like deceit and corruption, all governments are corrupt because no person is infallible, in a previous post you yourself had listed the number of arrested officials and politicians, this by itself proves that your own government, like ALL the others is indeed corrupt, I don’t think that anyone would disagree with me when I say that if any other nation had the power and might the US posses that they too would be doing similar things, that being said it still does not validate their actions…. People around the world get more frustrated when they see that the American public is turning a blind eye to what is being done in their name, which many misconstrue as the American public SUPPORTING everything that is being paid for by their sweat, you get the gist of it from CNN but you don’t see the whole picture and if you did dear barry I GUARANTEE you wouldn’t be waving that flag so high, this is why the AMERICAN people and not just AMERICAN POLICY get trodden on in the international community
Oh, sweet Jesus. The world is coming to an end and I'm sitting here typing in "cold drama". I'm just going to give my closing arguments and that's it. I'm not trying to "fob" anyone off. I had no choice where I was born. I have only experienced "American" culture first hand, so I can't really 100% totally see this country objectively. None of us can. We were born with blinders. All of us are. Granted, we are all human, but we don't always act like the same species. I think our views and personality are 40% biological and 60% environmental. I think our govenment is corrupted, but not to the degree that has been expressed here. Even if I agreed with everything that has been written, there isn't a damn thing I could do about it anyway other than get fired up. I guess I could do something radical and get the fucking book thrown at me because they DO NOT tolerate resistance. I feel like I work for this nation. Because I do have a 'leader' and the government does provide... not for me because I'm not on welfare, but they do provide for the people. Basically, I work for free. (but god bless Bill Clinton for FMLA, it has saved my ass from the firing line twice) And because I live here, I choose to have some pride about it. I can't imagine living somewhere else, because all in all, I like it here. Maybe it's this "pride" that makes me look at my country through rose-colored glasses, but I feel a lot of what has been written here isn't meant to make us think, but to make America look bad. And the "the world looks to America because we are the beautiful" was sarcasm... it was taken from "To the Mosquitoes" by Janes Addiction. Done
