I think more was lost from ancient Babylon than was passed on. It would be interesting to see if they ever figure out the Baghdad battery or the way to make Damascus steel. You're saying that we owe pretty much everything to Middle Eastern culture. I'm saying that isn't true, that we owe the ideals and thoughts of our modern culture to a wide variety of sources, the greeks being the ones that I see having the most pervasive influence on my individual life. The problem is the argument lies entirely in non-quantifiable and subjective terms. Who knows what the middle east would have done if they hadn't had contact with the Chinese. You also see the developement of empires and similar things in the Western Hemisphere entirely independent of the middle east. Native Americans had constitutions, civil codes, farming and agriculture, accurate calendars, the lists goes on. How is it they developed those things on their own if we owe those things to the ancient arab world?
Nursey wrote Nursey what I was miss quoted from you as saying was that I knew when I made my post questioning the Babylonians you would immediately scamper off to gather data on the internet. It is what you always do scamper off to usually hate-America sights as you your typical posts are hate America posts. Here now you are creating the illusion that all Arabs are Muslim. I never argued that nothing good came from Babylon although it seems you wish that were the case so you could argue that point. My point is that you are twisting the facts. Referring to a Mesopotamian is not necessarily referring to a Muslim now is it?
.....Herodotus, the ancient greek, said in his writings that "Babylon surpasses in splendour any city of the known world" (he visited it in 460 bc)..... We owe our elevation from primitive barbarians to the Mesopotamians...who were also the first to domesticate animals... Yes, we could all sit around (between our daily hunting and foraging for food) in our magnificent cave dwellings discussing (in a language we didn't understand) the lofty ideals of Plato, Aristotle and Socrates which were conveyed to us by primitive pictograms and word of mouth . Yeah, you're right...the cradle of civilisation is largely overrated, really! Maybe you are looking at 'what we owe Babylon in terms of civilisation' from what you see around you in this present age rather than looking at what we were before we had contact with them and the profound changes that contact made. Then it becomes easy to quantify. They made ALL the difference to us between primitive and civilised. Anything after that was just refining or icing on the cake. Who knows what the Chinese would have done if they hadn't had contact with the Middle East? What does it have to do with what IS? And how does it alter the fact that we have the Arabs to thank for their noble gestures to proliferate knowledge and civilisation of humanity, something they obviously held in very high regard. Erm...because we aren't Native Americans? Are you now trying to suggest we developed those things on our own? And when you said 'the list goes on', does it include the first proper writing, the wheel and mathematics as well? I'm not suggesting that all civilisations stemmed from Babylon, but ours does. This isn't my original thinking - it is all based on the researched knowledge of the highest authorities on the subject - and is not a matter for debate.
Nursey said... That's funny, I'm debating it anyway. And exactly who are the highest authorities in regards to what western civilization owes the Middle East? I really don't care what we owe to the Middle East. Me personally, I don't owe them shit. I don't owe the greeks a damn thing either. Nursey said in response to my statement... So which came first, the chicken or the egg. Seems like all of these cultures have had influences on each other. If we're talking about what IS then you should probably shut the fuck up. You're trying to tell me that we owe the vast majority of our culture in the west to the Babylonians. Then I bring up that the Babylonians were probably influenced by trade with China, and there invasion of India. You say that's irrelevant. Well then it's irrelevent to consider the influence of the Middle East on Western Culture. Seems like a bit of a double standard. In the meantime your trying to tell me that we owe Greek culture to the middle east as well, since they are the ones who saved and preserved it. Well then, I will stop saying the authors name when I read books, since they wrote it, but someone else printed it out, and I got it from a bookstore. You're trying to tell me that the middle east is responsible for Sigmund Freud, Friedrich Nietzsche, John Locke, David Hume, Albert Einstein, Thomas Jefferson, Isaac Newton, Henry Ford, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Voltaire, Imanuel Kant, Saint Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, Christopher Columbus, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, mechanized warfare, the Wright Brothers, Methamphetamine, T-shirts, blue jeans, the internal combustion engine, the automatic transmission, the jet engine, democracy, representative republic, communism, socialism, capitalism, the electric guitar, trial by jury, tiered courts, and peanut butter and jelly? Do you guys eat that in England? How about the cotton gin? Nothing personal Nursey, but it seems that Western culture has contributed quite a bit to itself. I was once a sperm you know, doesn't mean I owe everything in my life to whichever testicle I came out of.
Since I'm on the topic, we're having this discussion in Arabic, right. Oh, shit, that's right, we're speaking English, which is descendant from Germanic languages. They came from the Russian steppes. How strange, I thougth we owed everything to the middle east? But it's not up for debate.
Oh dear, here we go again. When faced with irrefutable facts which start to unravel the safe, propaganda-spun security blanket of ignorance and hatred which he takes his comfort and bravado from, thrusting his bare, puny, white ass unceremoniously out into the stark, resplendant rays of daylight, that frightened little creature known as Joeslogic resorts to desperate scrabbling - grabbing at leaves, branches, soil...whatever is closest by - in an awkward attempt to hide his modesty. Fabulous new theories get scrabbled together...magicked from thin air, no matter that they can't hold up for a moment, so long as Joe can just use the dirt and confusion to escape unseen from the harsh, bright glare of reality. Please Joe, point out where you were 'miss quoted' from me as saying was that you knew when you made your post questioning the Babylonians i would scamper off to gather data on the internet, and i will apologise for the slight. And after you do that, please go on to tell me what the hell it means to 'miss quote' - from me - as saying - was that - you knew - when you made your post questioning Babylonians - i would - immediately scamper off to gather data on the internet. Thanks. I'm sorry to spoil your warped fantasy of me as some sort of ungainly, four-legged beast, but i never 'scamper'. I smoothly glide my way along the lanes of the 'information superhighway' in my tight, streamlined, rubber nuns habit, with sequinned bat-mask for added discretion and mystique. Firstly, i think you'll find that i have never said 'i hate America'. Perhaps you confuse me with Diogenes who lives there, and who i doubt actually hates America...only the needless suffering caused by its corrupt ( dual-loyalist! ) leaders and ignorant, gullible masses who are fooled into doing their bidding, as do i. In fact, and i quote your words "although it seems you wish that were the case so you could argue that point", you will find that i am actually more pro-American than your leaders if respecting/defending your Constitution...the single most important piece of paper as far as your national identity is concerned...is considered a meaningful gauge. Tell me, Joe, are these people anti-American? Secondly, you are (supposedly) responding to posts/links of mine which state that Arab...and in many cases muslim Arabs...play a significantly large role in the western world's civilisation. What is so hate-filled and anti-American about that, may i ask? Does providing evidence to disprove your narrow, bigoted view of muslims as filth who aren't fit to kiss your feet amount to anti-Americanism? Is this and this what you call 'hate-America' websites? Have i really? If that is the case, then the illusion exists only in your mind. Which is surprising really, considering i've specifically stated otherwise to none other than... Joeslogic...in a previous thread!? Where does that seem to be the case? And why would i wish that? Are you accusing me of being more interested in harbouring petty grudges than making headway in a debate? That sounds more like you and your nasty bigotry, i'm afraid. No, you are Joe. Because you don't seem able to accept that muslims have done anything of any value whatsoever, nevermind contributed enormously to our civilisation. But unfortunately for you, the facts are all there for anyone who wishes to 'scamper off' and see. Keep scrabbling and magicking reasons to discredit me out of thin air, you are quite a wretched little weed in your vulnerability. Are you referring to me?
Well, personally i consider the leading academics on the subject in the universities across the world. Oh, and of course, Professor Diogenes! Do you also have that attitude towards your parents you feisty, rebellious young thing!? I didn't say it was irrelevant, but what did we get directly from the Indians and Chinese? We still have the Mesopotamians to thank for whatever civilising influence the west derived from the east. ...and then expanded upon it as well in cases. So we have both the Greeks (who got loads of their knowledge from ancient Babylon in the first place), as well as the Arab scholars who could understand and appreciate the value of the works and preserved them to thank, i believe. Maybe you didn't understand the first time i said it, so i repeat : "Maybe you are looking at 'what we owe Babylon in terms of civilisation' from what you see around you in this present age rather than looking at what we were before we had contact with them and the profound changes that contact made. Then it becomes easy to quantify. They made ALL the difference to us between primitive and civilised. Anything after that was just refining or icing on the cake." Yes, of course. But just as a child is its own person, able to take credit for all its achievements, it has its parents to be grateful to for guiding it to the point where it is able to take full care of itself.
I don't know if I hate living in America, but I know I hate living under this shit... Crazy, not-like-my-usual-cumulus-undulatus type clouds... These were nice and flat and as far as the eye could see, some rolling to the east, some rolling to the north, some intersecting and making grids...
Oh and I watched the news that night and some cool jet stream shit happened where it went way up to Canada and dipped nice and low to Texas, so we got a nice refreshing blast. Thanks A-team!
Really, I have no idea why I'm even arguing this point. I agree with you that we have a debt to the Middle East in terms of culture, especially in terms of religion. Why I'm arguing degree, I don't know, I woke up with a hangover this morning and was feeling rather feisty, or grumpy. I really don't care which civilization we owe the most to, but I'm going to say that your right about Mesopotamia. Nursey said... Damn straight. I'm the man. Even though I'm just sort of talking out of my ass about this based on loose associations I have from what I've studied. Of course, my parents dumped me off wherever they could so they could constantly work to afford a bigger house so my mom could buy more shit to fill it up with. Instead of investing and retiring well, they got divorced and now I have to support my mother, my sister, and the baby she's going to have in a month. I might owe them something, but they did what they did willingly, not like I had a choice in the matter. Throw me some references on this one, since I can't think of any specific examples, and I'd like to check it out if you are correct. I don't really care about the mathematics so much as I do cultural and philosophical issues. Good times, trees are made of wood.
Splitting hairs Nursey ? How about this one: The arabs believe in a jewish world conspiracy and they refuse women their rights. They uphold inhumane laws and are resistant to democracy. They threaten to dominate Europe demographically within a generation, and to spread their obsolete Papa-cult and create further distress and abolish intellectual freedom. Now YOU split some hairs. Sorry that I did not go with barrys opium (?). Would find Islam as satanic sect more interesting when it comes to rant. I agree that we owe, ( whomever lived in ) the ancient middle east gratitude. but even if I agree that we can smear it all together in a Big Babylon. They were STILL NOT ARABS. ( The arabs conquered all these old civilised areas and for 500 years gave a certain stability ) You heard that; i said CONQUERED. Just like they were CONQUERED themselves. Poor babylonians. And they owe us as much as we owe them. Surgery, electricity and television. Condoms ( Vive la France ) If they would choose to use them. Maybe their children would not have to starve, or roam the streets with stones iand molotov-coctails in hand.
No big deal Nursey I'm just pointing out the fact that you implied using Babylonian history you scampered off to retrieve that Arabs and apparently non-Arabs were Muslim due to the fact that they lived in a region. That in its self basically makes you a liar and basically means you have no credibility. Tough words I'm sure it must be hard to swallow. I think Xerx pretty much explained it. I would try to simply explain your misunderstanding of the facts at just that. But you in turn choose to attack the informer.
Like I've said, I hate living under this shit... Crazy, not-like-my-usual-cumulus-undulatus type clouds... These were nice and flat and as far as the eye could see, some rolling to the east, some rolling to the north, some intersecting and making grids... I watched the news that night and some cool jet stream shit happened where it went way up to Canada and dipped nice and low to Texas, so we got a nice refreshing blast. Thanks A-team!
I agree that we owe a debt of gratitude, no one argued that point. Civilizations interact, that's how we have progress. Apparently Nursey demands that we pay each society there due, and the Babylonians are owed the most of all. So here, I'm giving them 87% credit for this computer, and 100% credit for fuglyforums. After all, we owe the developement of our civilization to them.
Oh Babylon Oh Babylon your furnace burns so bright the honour of my firstborns death through the sacrificial rite Prepares my second son for death in the battle he must fight Oh Babylon Oh Babylon your towers long they stand i have forever love for thee yes i am in your hand. may Marduk bless as we confess May Baal look down tonight If its a test, you know whats best Thy Magis steer my hand In suplicance i find my chance perfumed and oiled i stand May Babylon forever reign As other cities grandeur feign Thy hanging gardens fragrancy is forever on my mind The Babylonian national anthem was excavated yesterday by the royal xerxian archaeological department and comes transcribed by his majety Xerxes X the illuminated and magnificient 8)
Yeah, I'll go hang out with the dogs in my wine jug now. Move, your blocking the warm rays of the sun.
:lol: Soc rates as Platonic love git it git it :lol: Speak up man, i am short of herring. Hehe Aaand i heeaard itr through the graapejuice, no much loonger would you wear shoes Corny corny yeah !
