I wanna hear from Canadians

Me? How interesting I suggest a solution that lets people choose between one or the other without infringing on or imposing a belief on anyone against their will. And somehow it is me *in your fenced in mind* who is the nutjob. Gee that seems. .... crazy.

 

I was being sarcastic you dimwit... But in your solutions, you are imposing your beliefs on someone else. You suggested that smokers be jailed and that low-income families pay extra taxes on the foods they consume. That's called class warfare and it's a big no-no.

I still have a hard time perceiving you as a libertarian. The arguments you make against the people you disagree with, are very totalitarian. For example, you suggested that smokers on the public insurance be jailed, interesting thing to say considering that the Third Reich used to promote similar values. The formal position that the Third Reich took on smoking was simple; if your body belongs to the state (which it does on public insurance), you will be jailed for damaging public property.
What do you know? A libertarian sharing political views with the Nazi Reich.

 

I just got sent an article about that the other day.

http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id1.html

 

Wrong again.

People who choose freedom are free to spark one up at their leisure. Of course an insurance (private) company has the right to ask if you are a smoker and therefore charge a higher rate. You could lie but then there are consequences if this is proven and you have breached the contract.

In the other hand if you are taking a handout and getting on government paid or subsidized insurance it is only fair that you are regulated to protect the people investing in your health. Its that simple if you choose Socialism that it quite simply your choice. You CHOOSE to lose your freedom.

 

Good post like I have said before the Nazi movement was a Socialist movement and far closer aligned to Democrats then Republicans the mere idea that you would have to argue to make the obvious point is an indication of just how brainwashed the average person is.

 

Here is an interesting quote from E. B. White:
"We grow tyrannical fighting tyranny. ... The most alarming spectacle today is not the spectacle of the atomic bomb in an unfederated world, it is the spectacle of the Americans beginning to accept the device of loyalty oaths and witch hunts, beginning to call anybody they don't like a Communist."
You might know E. B. White from his work writing children's books such as Charlotte's Web and Stuart Little, but not many know that he was also a political commentator.

Here is another quote, this time from Martin Niemoller. He was an anti-Nazi activist and poet. He lived under the Nazi regime and his works give us a nice perspective on life back then. This quote is in conjuncture with Joe's comment that Nazis were socialists:
"In Germany, [the Nazis] first came for the Communists, and I did not speak up, because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak up, because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak up, because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I did not speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me – and by that time no one was left to speak up."
Interesting to note that Hitler went after Communists and trade Unionists. So when Joe speaks of Nazis being closer to socialists than capitalists, it is in fact an erroneous statement, considering that republicans hate Communists and trade Unionists.

What I'm trying to say is that Hitler's party was a Nationalistic one. It's a mix of Socialism, Captialism, and Faschism. Categorizing an American political party as "Nazi" is a gross insult to North-America's efforts against the Nazi occupation of Europe. This brings us back to my earlier posts that Joe can't help himself but demonizing people who disagree with him. Democrats are Communists and Nazis (even though it's a bit of a contradiction, since you can't possibly be both).

But Good Ol' Joe is deeply entranched in his Texas fortress and anything that disagrees with him or his political party of choice, deserves to be exterminated. Even if it means fellow Americans or Canadians. By the way, wasn't Texas trying to secede for a while? You guys should keep trying.

 

Joe. What you're advocating is slavery for the poor. Let's list things that are bad for people.

Salt
Sugar
Grease
Oil
Vinegar
Aspirin
Any drug for that matter
Cornstarch
and on and on and on

Are we to ban those things from poor people who can't afford private health care?

 

That's what I keep telling him...

 

No we regulate them. That is what we already do. That is what Socialist do. These people are not as advanced as us and are incapable of logical reasoning and need some one to think for them. To hold back on that table salt when prudence would dictate.

They are the ones that want Socialism and are opting for Socialism so this is not a problem of infringement on peoples freedom because it is what they want. Some people have a desire for this type of parenting by their "Nanny State" and that is perfectly fine. We need not infringe though upon the rights of freedom lovers.

 

Nazism

(Nationalsozialismus, National Socialism)



Anti-capitalist rhetoric

Early Nazi rhetoric included anti-capitalism, especially anti-finance capitalism.[17] In attacking the ills of Weimar democracy, Adolf Hitler spoke of a “pluto-democracy” Jewish conspiracy that favoured liberal democratic parties in order to maintain the integrity of capitalism[43] Throughout his political campaigning, Hitler emphasized the background role of Jewish financiers in the ills of Weimar democracy.[44] In opposing finance capitalism, the Nazis emphasized a supposed "Jewish conspiracy" of bankers who controlled international finance, and thus the countries of the world.[45] Furthermore, a leftist faction of the Nazis attacked the corporation as the leading instrument of finance capitalism’s oppression of the worker (later, the faction was purged from the party).

In 1920, the Nazi Party published the National Socialist Program, an ideology that in 25 points demanded:

that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens . . . the abolition of all incomes unearned by work . . . the ruthless confiscation of all war profits ... the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations ... profit-sharing in large enterprises ... extensive development of insurance for old-age ... land reform suitable to our national requirements.[46]

During the 1920s, Nazi Party officials variously attempted either to change or to replace the National Socialist Program. In 1924, the Nazi Party economist theoretician Gottfried Feder proposed a new, 39-point program, retaining some old and introducing some new ideas.[47] Hitler did not directly mention the program in Mein Kampf; he only mentioned "the so-called programme of the movement".[48] Also during the 1920s, however, Hitler urged disparate Nazi factions to unite in opposition to "Jewish Marxism." [49] Hitler asserted that the "three vices" of "Jewish Marxism" were democracy, pacifism, and internationalism.[50]

In 1927, Hitler said: "We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”[51] Yet two years later, in 1929, Hitler backtracked, saying that socialism was “an unfortunate word altogether” and that “if people have something to eat, and their pleasures, then they have their socialism”. Historian Henry A. Turner reports Hitler’s regret at having integrated the word socialism to the Nazi Party name.[52] The Nazi Party’s early self-description as “socialist” caused conservative opponents, such as the Industrial Employers Association, to describe it as “totalitarian, terrorist, conspiratorial, and socialist”.[53]

In 1930, Hitler said: “Our adopted term ‘Socialist’ has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism. Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not”.[54] In 1931, during a confidential interview with influential editor Richard Breiting of the Leipziger Neueste Nachrichten, a pro-business newspaper, Hitler said:

I want everyone to keep what he has earned, subject to the principle that the good of the community takes priority over that of the individual. But the State should retain control; every owner should feel himself to be an agent of the State ... The Third Reich will always retain the right to control property owners.[55]

In 1932, Nazi Party spokesman Joseph Goebbels said that the Nazi Party was a “workers’ party”, “on the side of labour, and against finance”.[56] According to economist and philosopher Friedrich von Hayek, in a 1941 speech, Hitler declared that "basically National Socialism and Marxism are the same."[57]
Working class and middle class appeal

In 1922, to ensure German public perception of the Nazi Party as politically unique, Adolf Hitler discredited other nationalist and racialist political parties as disconnected from the mass populace, especially lower- and working-class young people:

The racialists were not capable of drawing the practical conclusions from correct theoretical judgements, especially in the Jewish Question. In this way, the German racialist movement developed a similar pattern to that of the 1880s and 1890s. As in those days, its leadership gradually fell into the hands of highly honourable, but fantastically naïve men of learning, professors, district counsellors, schoolmasters, and lawyers — in short a bourgeois, idealistic, and refined class. It lacked the warm breath of the nation’s youthful vigour.[58]

Despite many working-class supporters and members, the appeal of the Nazi Party to the working class was neither true nor effective, because its politics mostly appealed to the middle-class, as a stabilizing, pro-business political party, not a revolutionary workers’ party.[59][59] Moreover, the financial collapse of the white collar middle-class of the 1920s figures much in their strong support of Nazism, thus the great percentage of declared middle-class support for the Nazis.[59] In the poor country that was the Weimar Republic of the early 1930s, the Nazi Party realised their socialist policies with food and shelter for the unemployed and the homeless — later recruited to the Brownshirt Sturmabteilung (SA — Storm Detachment).[59]

 

Anti-capitalist rhetoric

Early Nazi rhetoric included anti-capitalism, especially anti-finance capitalism.[17] In attacking the ills of Weimar democracy, Adolf Hitler spoke of a “pluto-democracy” Jewish conspiracy that favoured liberal democratic parties in order to maintain the integrity of capitalism[43] Throughout his political campaigning, Hitler emphasized the background role of Jewish financiers in the ills of Weimar democracy.[44] In opposing finance capitalism, the Nazis emphasized a supposed "Jewish conspiracy" of bankers who controlled international finance, and thus the countries of the world.[45] Furthermore, a leftist faction of the Nazis attacked the corporation as the leading instrument of finance capitalism’s oppression of the worker (later, the faction was purged from the party).

In 1920, the Nazi Party published the National Socialist Program, an ideology that in 25 points demanded:

that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens . . . the abolition of all incomes unearned by work . . . the ruthless confiscation of all war profits ... the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations ... profit-sharing in large enterprises ... extensive development of insurance for old-age ... land reform suitable to our national requirements.[46]

During the 1920s, Nazi Party officials variously attempted either to change or to replace the National Socialist Program. In 1924, the Nazi Party economist theoretician Gottfried Feder proposed a new, 39-point program, retaining some old and introducing some new ideas.[47] Hitler did not directly mention the program in Mein Kampf; he only mentioned "the so-called programme of the movement".[48] Also during the 1920s, however, Hitler urged disparate Nazi factions to unite in opposition to "Jewish Marxism." [49] Hitler asserted that the "three vices" of "Jewish Marxism" were democracy, pacifism, and internationalism.[50]

In 1927, Hitler said: "We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”[51] Yet two years later, in 1929, Hitler backtracked, saying that socialism was “an unfortunate word altogether” and that “if people have something to eat, and their pleasures, then they have their socialism”. Historian Henry A. Turner reports Hitler’s regret at having integrated the word socialism to the Nazi Party name.[52] The Nazi Party’s early self-description as “socialist” caused conservative opponents, such as the Industrial Employers Association, to describe it as “totalitarian, terrorist, conspiratorial, and socialist”.[53]

In 1930, Hitler said: “Our adopted term ‘Socialist’ has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism. Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not”.[54] In 1931, during a confidential interview with influential editor Richard Breiting of the Leipziger Neueste Nachrichten, a pro-business newspaper, Hitler said:

I want everyone to keep what he has earned, subject to the principle that the good of the community takes priority over that of the individual. But the State should retain control; every owner should feel himself to be an agent of the State ... The Third Reich will always retain the right to control property owners.[55]

In 1932, Nazi Party spokesman Joseph Goebbels said that the Nazi Party was a “workers’ party”, “on the side of labour, and against finance”.[56] According to economist and philosopher Friedrich von Hayek, in a 1941 speech, Hitler declared that "basically National Socialism and Marxism are the same."[57]
Working class and middle class appeal

In 1922, to ensure German public perception of the Nazi Party as politically unique, Adolf Hitler discredited other nationalist and racialist political parties as disconnected from the mass populace, especially lower- and working-class young people:

The racialists were not capable of drawing the practical conclusions from correct theoretical judgements, especially in the Jewish Question. In this way, the German racialist movement developed a similar pattern to that of the 1880s and 1890s. As in those days, its leadership gradually fell into the hands of highly honourable, but fantastically naïve men of learning, professors, district counsellors, schoolmasters, and lawyers — in short a bourgeois, idealistic, and refined class. It lacked the warm breath of the nation’s youthful vigour.[58]

Despite many working-class supporters and members, the appeal of the Nazi Party to the working class was neither true nor effective, because its politics mostly appealed to the middle-class, as a stabilizing, pro-business political party, not a revolutionary workers’ party.[59][59] Moreover, the financial collapse of the white collar middle-class of the 1920s figures much in their strong support of Nazism, thus the great percentage of declared middle-class support for the Nazis.[59] In the poor country that was the Weimar Republic of the early 1930s, the Nazi Party realised their socialist policies with food and shelter for the unemployed and the homeless — later recruited to the Brownshirt Sturmabteilung (SA — Storm Detachment).[59]

 

German Social Democrat Party was funded by the trade unions

 

The sad thing is...... facism was the most effective form of government of the 20th century. Too bad evil people gave it a bad name.

We are already very socialist in America. We have free libraries, a very cheap postal system, free condom handouts.... bunch of things. Not all socialism is bad.

 

Very true but when something is all screwed up because of Socialism its healthy to identify that. The media in American and elsewhere spins Socialism's fallacies into a Capitalism failure.

Rolling brownouts in California are a direct result or regulations on business not the other way around. Gas price hikes a result of regulating the suppliers sources of oil. *interesting isn't it that Obama wants to open off shore drilling ....or does he really?* American car manufacturers failures are do to unions which are a form of Socialism. The list goes on and on. The people get stupider and stupider, in the end as a product of that downward spiral we end up with what we asked for because it was what we were told we wanted "change" which apparently means a redoubling of efforts sinking ever faster into that downward spiral.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2iiirr5KI8&

 

Couple things to point out. Saying that unions are a form of socialism is ludicrous. Socialism is an economic system (also known as high command system) and a vague ideology, while unions are a group of employees with representation at the executive level of a firm. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Although I am progressive, I am also a conservative, Which means that I have a general dislike of unions, but I don't go as far as calling them socialistic. Unions used to be useful; they helped abolish child labour, they gave an employee the right to disagree with his boss, and they helped push for workplace equality and maternal/paternal leave. Nowadays, they can sometimes bully the firm that they are supposed to be working with.

Saying that unions are the cause for the car manufacturers' demise is a gross oversimplification. The car manufacturers took two deadly jabs, one from the foreign car market and one from a decline in spending by Americans. The Japanese/Korean car market is very, very strong these days. They have access to cheap and highly skilled labour from China, easy access to raw materials, and an overall good reputation with American consumers (although Toyota isn't doing too well these days). Combine that with a stuttering economy that forces consumers to save their money. Unions didn't help their own cause, but they also didn't directly cause the demise of the American car industry. Look up the term "Economies of Scale", it will help you understand the theory behind the strength of the Asian automobile market.

Oversimplification and Demonization are Joe's epitaphs.

 

Maybe Hungary can get it right this time then. Don't count on it and get ready for the misinformation.

 

Actually, it's spelled "T I E R" - but the way you spell it is more straight-to-the-bone.

 

Yeah like a tear in the fabric of society. I'm glad someone noticed the pun. I was gonna say something but what's the point of explaining a joke that no one noticed?

Keep sharp buddy.

 

I want to hear from West Virginains...

you guys are booooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggggg