So what was the biggest news event to occur this week?

Pure, absolute, undeniable, propaganda.

In the midst of huge historical relevance, one of the largest most compelling and telling news stories to justify American involvement in Iraq. That being an UN-PRECIDENTED estimated 70% voter turnout in an Iraqi election with very few incidents.

Two breaking news stories:

The story that President Bush is spying on American citizens! Members of the House of Representatives are very concerned! They want an investigation!

Let’s correct that: Bush has briefed members of congress at least a dozen times since the inception of a program in the past years. Used only to intercept the international communications of people inside the United States who have been determined to have "a clear link" to al- Qaida or related terrorist organizations. The program is reviewed every 45 days, using fresh threat assessments, legal reviews by the Justice Department, White House counsel and others, and information from previous activities under the program. By intelligence officials involved in the monitoring who receive extensive training to make sure civil liberties are not violated. Democrat members of congress are saying that they are alarmed about these NEW revelations and demanding an investigation.
Oops I’m sorry did I say breaking news? My apologies this cannot be breaking news its old news something that everyone knew about and has been going on for years that cannot be breaking news.

One we had Al-Zarqowi in our hands and let him slip through. Hold on did I say breaking news? But this is old news. This which is presented as fact is actually suggestion and innuendo no proof to exist. And one again this is old news why is it brought up in the first place?

Tow pieces of obvious propaganda that could have been posted in the news during any one of the 365 days this year. Were crammed down the people’s throat on December 16th coincidentally the day of the Iraqi election which was a huge success and a milestone event in the history of the world.

Was it just coincidence?

 

hahahha joe that wasn’t a "milestone" in the history of the world........ maybe in the history of modern-day iraq... contrary to American belief history goes back much farther than 1776.... although admitably the timing is suspicious, i had been puzzled for a long time about why no one spoke out against the said spying... it's a blatant violation of civil rights...... they can say they delete the tapes and that only certain things get filtered through but do we really know that? i don’t trust any intelligence agency with personal information about myself i don't think anyone does.

the media is controlled by corporations......... meaning that they are dickriders...... they follow trends........ now that the flag waving and pin wearing has stopped the new trend is to actually look at the other side, broadcast information the Europeans have been discussing for years

 

Well then we agree partly...... Cool...... I'm at a loss.

But the degree at which the Iraqi people participated is truly inspiring.

I gotta go find Lucy and call her off.

 

Rise in poll complaints troubles Iraq vote monitors

 

I love Steve Bell...










President Discusses Iraq In Address To The Nation - Closed-Captioned For Those Whose Hearing (And Thinking) Has Been Impaired By The Drumbeats For War

 

Seems it bites itself this news-equilization. But i would think that the utter foolishness of coming EXACTLY on the same day, is rather clever return to honesty as strategy.
Earlier they spread it out in another pattern. As for "blatant breach of civil rights". One of the main goals of post ww2 terror has been to force governments to implement antidemocratic measures and sensure. First you get the attentionon the attacks , then you get the countermeasures, then the protests against the cost of liberty by the countermeasures. Divide , and if not conquer, then at least drive the USarmy out of saudiarabia. ( BinLadens original demand ).

It has prooven that the cost of alliance with repressive regimes is high. Highest for the population forced to side against USdominated marketliberalism ( ElSalvador, Cuba, Nicaragua, Vietnam, etc ) But allso for the USA when the cycle turns and the geostrategical picture changes.

 

So were back I see.

Yeah Xerk you are correct on the first part (I think) as for the market. That’s the beauty of capitalism if we are too big, and inefficient then yes you are correct it will turn on us. I guess that’s why we have to keep up producing good products and services. The market corrects itself and works to the benefit of those who apply themselves. That is the beauty of the system.

ElSalvador, Cuba, Nicaragua, Vietnam.

As for the first and second I’m sorry I missed that. As for Cuba… a perfect example of the atrocities allowed to occur when the left side of American governments tries to prop a dictator because of the party’s socialist leanings. If the pachyderm’s had any control in it that problem would have been fixed years ago.

Vietnam more of the same the commies in our own country forced a weakened administration to pull out there and resulted in a massacre of millions.

Smiley….. You are getting swept up in the conspiracy again. This was brought before the public and what you see in as far as the timing is exactly what it is. As for trust of the system, well look at it this way. First of all then as well as now there is some seriously misguided propaganda being placed out there. The people being monitored are specifically people who have known communication links with suspected foreign nationals who are suspect of having terrorist links. If you think that the US has the capability of throwing a broad blanket of surveillance over the whole population. Then we might as well stop discussing it right now you are far to brainwashed as well as gullible. On the other hand if you can accept that fact then you would have to assume that the most effective means is to target the most suspect. This Simple Logic would conclude that the official statement by the government is correct.

 

But Joe ! what you say about capitalism can allso be said about empires and states in general. And countered with the oppositional forces that have allways existed.

I do not doubt that Castros regime has done bad, but it would certainly help if they were allowed to trade. As for a US-intervention. Would cuba then be as "well" off as the other latinamerican countries. It is quite certain that if cuba had been allowed to trade, they would have been the most successfull economy in ctr,amrc and caribia ( Taxhavens exempted ).

As for Vietnam. They had fought the French and Japanese with success. The main reason folks died in Vietnam is that they refused to give up, and the south-regime was just a puppet. You have to remember that communism was seen as a counter-imperialist force for most poor people. At least when they started to read.

The vietnamese were not allowed to rule themselves by 1French2Japanese3French4Americans. Thats why many millions of them died. To blame it on Vietnam is Hmm !?!

OK: Here is what I believe. As long as the US was intent on continuing the Vietnamwar that was to the USSRs advantage. It was far cheaper for USSR and China to use the resistance of the vietnamese people. Have you won there you might have to face the Kmere Rouge ( Not to mention the cost of "holding" Northvietnam ), and then the supplyline would have gone there instead while USforces would have been hampered by continued Viet resistance The withdrawal was strategically correct, but should not ( strategically ) have come sooner. The Viets needed to be on their knees as an example to other "freedomfighters".

A few years later, the same tactic is used against USSR. Its instrumented by Kissinger and it leads to the assembly of islamic ideologies for use as a war-tool against USSR in afghanistan. BinLaden and others are trained by the CIA and its a common cause of people that believe in G-d against the atheist forces.

 

And in the big ideological war between to socialistic and liberalistic ideologies , its no wonder a lot of people died. As such, both the 5-10thousand "commies" arrested during the McCarthyScourge, and the
50(or so)Millions killed in USSR and China as "counterrevolutionaries" were victims. To blame all or most of the vietmanese killed during the US interventon in Vietnam on the vietnamese thmselves though, that does not cut it.

And with that ! Over and out !

 

Vietnam was when the communist figured out or perfected the use of dissent as a brainwashing tool for masses and it worked quite effectively North Vietnamese military strategist now admit they would have never succeeded without the help of the us media.
And although a lot of South Vietnamese died while we were there more did after we left they were brutally slaughtered. While I understand that war is war and this was a strategy being used by placing them as an example. I feel very bad for the ones we deserted when they needed us most. Yes it was realized that holding the North would be practically impossible since there whole population could be replaced 10 times over by Chinese and China would not even see a dent in there population. We would have had to go to war with China also. This interestingly enough is what we are basically seeing now with Syrian, Jordanian, and Saudi Arabian etc. They probably comprise 70 percent of the insurgency stirring up trouble against the Iraqi government.

McCarthy? Xerx that is a rewrite of history. Sure there were legitimately communist actively working in our country against our government during a time of war. We never strung them up and hung them or tried them and shot them as some would argue we should have and as they would have in many other non-democratic societies. Don’t fall for the Hollywood propaganda that would have you believe a lot of innocent people were swept up in a witch-hunt. Ronald Regan himself was one of them when he was president of the actor’s guild (I believe that was the organization possibly wrong) and after seeing how disillusioned he had been led to be changed his ideology. There is plenty of proof out there that McCarthy had it right.

 

Ho Chi Minh started his work of revolution in th 20s, long before any russian or chinese were involved. It ws not an international plan, but a vietnamese plan to get rid of foreign rule.

Its right taht they could not have succeded without the help of US-media, but could you ? I believe I have answered that in my former post. The division of a country into a north and a south is not neccesarily a benign thing.
Probably valid to say that the US had to defend against possible espionage during cold war. Unfortunately this takes away a lot of the democratical rights of the underprivileged as well. Most of those persecuted were still not guilty of any crime other than believing in leftist ideology. Thus , a clear analogy to the persecutions in the east. Luckily not with the same savage methods or to same extent. I believe we have seen a crippeling of the ecological movement along the same lines in our time. One difference though. Its hard to cry COMMIECOMMIE.

Quote:
"And although a lot of South Vietnamese died while we were there more did after we left they were brutally slaughtered"

Apply this reason to Afghanistan were the same thing is true. The clash between the two ideologicaly opposites ( Wich allso happen to be the speard of europeans geographically ), as not a onesided thing. The west ,led by the USA ( lately ) has bled autonomous cultures and areas dry and left them to rot. And if the USA is a bit better it still does not make you champion of justice world wide. That again, is called propaganda :wink:

 

South Vietnam people wanted to be free from communist rule we came to there aid. The atrocities inflicted on the South Vietnamese people by the communist was far more appalling then anything even rumor and innuendo can accuse the Americans of. During the cold war America acted to defend its self against the very real threat of globalize communism.

Afghanistan as well as Iraq were acts of necessity not …. self indulgent …. whatever the current whacked out theory is reason.

The current technique of the American hating left in our country is to take bits and pieces of evidence that would indicate there was no reason to believe Iraq was pursuing nuclear weapons. Plaster them throughout the news and hope to breakdown public confidence. They know that they can get away with doing this and paint themselves as concerned patriots. The only way the administration can counter is to lay out all the facts to the American public regarding all the quality intelligence we have supporting the actual facts. The current administration will not do this simply because it would jeopardize foreign sources of intelligence. They know the amount of harm it would do and know that the current administration will take the high road and do the right thing regardless of consequence.

Once again the scenario fits, like the story of King Solomon and the two women brought before him arguing over which is the true mother of a baby. The left will gladly sacrifice the countries welfare to gain power. While at the same time the right will take one penalty after another trying to do what is best.

The only way to protect the truth is for the media to call the left out on this farce and the simple fact that they do not but instead willingly cooperate is propaganda.

 

Here is a perfect example of propaganda by the left dominated media.

From:

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/michaelbarone/2006/01/02/180778.html

 

The SouthVietnamese were under a corrupt facist-regime held artificially up by western colonialists. ( Probably better than the alternativestill ) But thereyou have it. People tend to fight for freedom, even if its not good for them.

The USA used napalm and white phosporous. Burning women and children alive. Peasants were relocated so they could not suport their guerilas. Thisis a clear "consentration-camp" policy and who knows how many died during these forced marches.

I would like some source on the deaths after the liberation ( From foreign powers ) as opposed to the 2million that died during the war. The Vietnamese army allso stopped the slaughter of Pol Pot a TRUE communist madman. And as for "world conspiracy" A few years after the US withdrawal, the vietnamese stop the chinese red armys attempt at invasion. Not much left of communist conspiracy there then.

I do not get the"socialist" take on the article quoted. I just think its symptomatic that the Bush-admin rips away environmental protection. Spurns an attempt at international agreement, and boosts the powereconomy without any consern for future generations or other nations that are far mor vulnerable to high oilprices. I have seen so many places were Gringoes are buying the best spots , setting everything up as a servicesystem to their own wasteful consumption and driving the local population away. A nation that tries to implement laws against this is faced with harsh countermeasures. The US "succes" in spreading a fair wealth-distribution southwards is a measure of the US "goodwill" towards others. The fact is. You do NOT have an internal socialistcamp other than a few intellectuals made impotent by the production of memes by the oldschool military-industrial lobby. A state is in it self not socialism.

 

Hi again Joe Just a few more comments. We obviously use the word socialism in a different sence. I would hate for that to get in the way of what i consider a good exchange of argument.

But as to the article, ( your example of leftist controlled media ); My consern would be the long-term ecological effects with its domino-effect on demographics and economics and democracy/peace.

Is your critique as to the truth of the statements in the article ? Please elucidate me.

I allso have something on your statement here.
"The market corrects itself and works to the benefit of those who apply themselves".

My first respons was to compare capitalism to other structures. I would allso like to add, that "those who apply themselves" can do so either as serious members of the community, or as mad scavengers with no thought for anything other than their own gain, "and damn the torpedoes" of tomorrow.

Ronald Reagan was in the actors guild spying against those with to radical ideas. Just like european labour spied against the radicals in theior unions. Now the spying is ok by me, but when you have public hearings and shame campaigns then the democracy has left the building.

Sorry for all the words. Its an art keeping it short. :wink:

 

Xerx wrote

Absolutely, the facts were way misrepresented implying that GW went beyond any historical precedent feeding the left charge that GW committed an impeachable offense.

Clinton did exactly the same thing during his administration and not a word was spoken and it was no secret that no one knew about either.

How about the simple fact that the people that spoke out were divulging classified information of the highest nature to the world. Should they not be rooted out and indicted?

The media has implied that they are "whistle blowers" even "patriots". Well if that is the case then would it also not be the case that whoever exposed Joe Wilson the husband of a CIA desk jockey and a fraud. Would this person not also be a whistle blower, a patriot, a hero?

The topic is left wing propoganda which is sooo easy to proove, like taking candy from a baby its simply undenieable.

Nah, you got it all wrong Ronald was duped long before he had risen to the position of president of the actors’ guild, before falling for that you need to read up on Regan. He was raised in that environment. He simply figured out the truth and saw things for what they are. This is when he changed his ideology and eventually got into politics. For really good insight into the thinking of Dutch I recommend reading the recently released chronology of letters written by Reagan. When you look at the simply amazing quantity of letters he wrote (I believe the Regan library has over 3000 letters that were given to the library….. That’s like a letter a day for what? 9 years?) From looking at letters written from his youth all the way to his death, you get an undeniably accurate view of his forming his ideology.

 

As for Reagans betrayal of his post as union-leader ther is hardly a "truth" to be found in ideological discourse, lat alone HIS ideological platform. And if it is,it needs objectivity as to the atrocities of both ( or more ) parties.


"South Vietnam people wanted to be free from communist rule we came to there aid. The atrocities inflicted on the South Vietnamese people by the communist was far more appalling then anything even rumor and innuendo can accuse the Americans of. During the cold war America acted to defend its self against the very real threat of globalize communism"

Yes and no.

The USA had the right to defend its interests against diametrically oposed ideological forces. ( Just as the USSR ( With less succes )).

There were no southvietnames people. The vietnamese struggle for independence was a national and patriotic one, long before they were caught in thedevastating grip og the two ideologies, liberal capitalism vs marxist-leninism. :cry:

 

Xerx said

[/quote]As for Reagans betrayal of his post as union-leader ther is hardly a "truth" to be found in ideological discourse, lat alone HIS ideological platform. And if it is,it needs objectivity as to the atrocities of both ( or more ) parties.

 

Xerx, after reading in the media about the public transportation strike in New York City what conclusions or rather observations do you draw from what you read?

 

Hi JoesL

Xerx said

[/quote]As for Reagans betrayal of his post as union-leader ther is hardly a "truth" to be found in ideological discourse, lat alone HIS ideological platform. And if it is,it needs objectivity as to the atrocities of both ( or more ) parties.

Means you cant claim that his betrayal/patriotism was solely good , just as i cant claim it was solely bad. Of course he had a higher responsibility as a citizen in general. But that is as long as the civil contract ( In your case the interpreted constitution ) is upheld. Including the right to assembly and political discussion.

I just read some headlines about the strike. The pension-scare seems to be apropriate. I do not know the spesifics of this case. But its vicious that everybody needs to expend more co2 al the time to keep the pensions and th "plan" going ahead. I know that american workers have lost proportionally , to the rich , for a long long time. Just like in europe. Its just not sustainable. Goes against the future of the planet and the species and G-d in all tha shades that humanity has been able to imagine him/her/it/them. ( Totally lost the strike though ) :lol: