Smiles asks - can people really change?

This is a carry over from another thread. It started with this -

Smiles - I know that people can change. It just seems to me that the only way people make a lasting change is if PAIN is present. The quote above is strue because the person involved is inflicting pain, not experiencing ti.

Pain is a powerful motivator, be it physical, psychological or emotional.

Why do alcoholics stop drinking? The pain of tickets, jail, broken relationships, fines, etc. Nobody stops drinking when all is fun.

Pleasurable rewards can change behaviors, but not permanently. It only lasts as long as the pleasurable reinforcer is present.

As far at the "Born Again" thing, I think the same applies. I have never seen anyone "turn to God" when everything is great. It usually happens in a time of crisis, and the change that occurs can be very real.

I personally believe that God has a direct hand in this process of change. If there is no God, then the fact remains that change occurred because the person WANTED change, and BELIEVED that change happened.

Desire (want) + Faith (belief) = change

That equation works whether God is real or not.

Barry

 

you raise interesting points barry but i'm still not satisfied.... no one on earth thinks they are perfect.... yet few strive towards perfection because somewhere along that line you lose your individuality and become the ultimate conformist.... now if an individual sees themselves on a self-destructive path and chooses to desist in this behavior then is that really change? isn;t it just basic survival? none of us here would eat a can of shark-shit but if it was a life and death situation we would.... i know we all evolve on almost a daily basis but it's all being built on the same foundation so any actual "change" is just a barry 5.01

 

Fear, Pain, same thing. Smiles Smiles, no one strives towards perfection because they're either too lazy to, they believe it is unachievable, the persecution they would recieve would be unbearable. They don't "not strive" because they're afraid of being conformists, they "don't strive" because it's deemed a waste of time.

I think you're wrong Barry, when you say that pleasurable experiences don't make for lasting changes, because they do. People gravitate towards the things that make them happy, and shun the things that bring them fear and pain.

The thing is, there is no permanency. Just as someone has picked up a trait that may have been very useful at one time, they can lose it when they "let their guard down" during good times. And that itself is change. It's just what we need at the time.

 

well i think we need to agree on the underlying cause of our behaviour....... free conscience/ free will..... biological..... sociological..... ethral... what makes us do what we do?

 

I suppose it would be helpful if we were to look at what we are referring to as far as the level of change.
Spiritual change,
Physical change,
Sex change,
Change clothes,
Spare change :lol:
I think I understand where you’re coming from though. In my mind spiritual change only comes through divine intervention. This has been the case ever since we as a race choose to eat that damn apple. Now where pretty much given the responsibility to do on our own and choose our own idea of morality. There is an inherent compass that always points in the right direction (morally that is) for those who have changed by way of Devine intervention.
Just because that compass points us in the right direction does not mean we will take that path as that path is often the one of the greatest resistance.

 

Oh and you're right Barry, no one has turned to God when times are good or anything like that. For the most part people becoming "born again" have done so because of some painful experience. But I also have yet to see God come down, take someone away to heaven for a little while, and then bring them back to this comparable shithole. I'm sure they'd be changed, and that that change would be something seemingly permanent they took to the grave as well.

Like two opposite energies, Pleasure and Pain, they can both have an influence on our behaviors. There's just a lot more painful experiences out there and hardly anyone knows how to find any lasting happiness.

And when you say that every day we evolve and thus any change is built on top of our pre-existing foundation, that is not necessarily true. What about the person who finds out their entire life is a lie, or the general who finds out he's been lied to and his cause is wrong. We take things we experience in our world and try to put them in their correct place in our minds, but something profound enough can shake us off our foundation and land us somewhere new inside our minds.

 

Sometimes the route that is actually right, is very hard to percieve as being correct because on that route some bad things are inherent. Lets say for instance you know something as a pretty well established fact. To get it across to someone else you may have to hurt their feelings. Now your delemma would be wether or not to interfere with their understanding. Is that wrong? I would say no depending on how far you would take it. Ocasionally it is better to space yourself than to say anything at all. People will always learn the hard way, one way or another. Change is usually only done when there is no other apparent choice. Take it for whatever it's worth. Blah blah blah....

 

yeah but regardless of what side th egenral is fighting for.... or what the guy is gonna do .... your whole life is based on a series of learned responses, experiences, and habits. So regardless of who the general is fighting for pizzas gonna be his favourite food.... he'll be using the same strategies or approaches to battle he'll love his wife and his kids in his own way .... i mean really what i was asking was weather if someone changes they've actualy chnged their whole course of thinking not just reacting.... if u kick your dog every time he hsits on the carpet he's gonna stop shitting on the carpet when you;re arround, not because he's changed.... just reacting... was wondering if we can do more than that

 

I'd like to say yes people can change but in reality an actual change of life doesn't happen. Your personality is said to be determined by the time you are 7. I'm sure some of you have heard this before. Your decisions in life are based off the essentials you8 learned as a child. Thats why you always hear jokes about people being abused as kids. But even abused kids can learn good from bad. The question is obscure in that you can't ever really explain it, a person's conscious is a very weird thing. I'll tell you one thing, every paper i ever wrote was done one day before it was due.

 

Nah, people can change. Our bodies are the medium through which our consciousness interacts with this physical world, and I don't think that's a one-way street. Our personalities are capable of change, our tastes change, our favorite foods change, although we'll probably always still like the old favorites. We're our own best experiment, look inside yourself they always say.

It's called changing how you look at and what you think of the world around you. It's possible, although most don't have the attention span necessary to induce the change, and so their brain falls into the old patterns and grooves it already dug. Physical health helps with that, providing all the necessary cell-branchings and neurochemicals that relieve stress and can make these trips into one's own mind an enjoyable experience.

I mean, don't you have to think a different way just to react differently?

Yeah, we sure as hell can change our minds and thought patterns, for the better or worse. But the ability to do that diminishes with our health and age, as we grow rigid and old.

 

Smiles what you say about learned response deserves merit. But I'm with Smurf on this one people can change but it’s "not easy to teach an old dog a new trick". One needs to have an open mind not sacrifice your foundation beliefs but learn new truths and therefore change. But the key is to be well grounded in your core beliefs, and be your biggest critic challenging and pontificating on your beliefs. This will keep you from being swayed by anything but the most compelling argument.

 

perhaps we should structure a working example or a situation otherwise all of this strategizing and theorizing is really just a waste of webspace....

let's say a man cheats on his wife... she catches him... he swears he'll never do it again... she believes him they stay together.... he never cheats on her again.....

now would this constitute change? i mean he's only really looking out for his best interests.... an occasional fuck isn’t worth sacrificing a life partner... had he not been caught he would in likelihood continue having affairs ... the man was a selfish fuck when he committed the adultery and he's being a selfish fuck by staying married tot eh woman when he's already proven marriage as an oath and an institution means little to him


just asking questions here..... like they say: no theory can be proven, only disproven.

 

Like I said Smiley you make a valid point it’s really deep you illustrate a point where the so called change is really generic in nature... however I'm still with the Smurf on this one. No sense in going all over it again I believe change can occur when someone more or less realizes there os more out there a bigger truth than they previously knew.

 

I think that people can change, but whether the change is in the actions or attitudes ..well, there lies the rub.

Major change is difficult, and it has to be something that is wanted bad enough. It is true that usually people only change when they themselves are hurting, but the same doesn't hold true unfortunately when it is others suffering and not them.

I think change has to come from within to be reflected without..whether it is of a spritual basis or not.

 

sweet medic, were that you here to minister to my wounds..you have a truly shining soul ..fine words,
and I think that you have the strength to live them. I'm fairly new here, but I've noticed that any show of decency attracts the freaks like sharks to chum. You seem to have a pass with the demented clique that runs this show. How did that happen? Is it your innate aura of good, or did you pay the evil bastards off?

 

me ..given a 'pass'??

BWAHAHAAHAA!

okay, that was funny, but thanks for the thot.

 

Ok I think I'm also with Medic on this to a great extent. True change has to come from within. A person with a soul for instance a moral indicator that points in the direction of righteousness and a soul that is stronger than logic that pushes the person to do right even against logical reasoning.

However a lot of people find this true and legitimate change in exactly the situation where the pain was someone else’s. An example of that would be during hurricane Katrina. There were a lot of people that really under normal logic could not afford to take time and resources from there own to help those in need. But they found compassion and did. And they got a great deal of fulfillment in doing so.

Really I think everyone made a valid point. Certainly a sociopath could not change in the real context of change, as Smiley mentioned.  I think maybe I’m slipping… hopefully I won’t slip the level of gouging an eye out and inserting it into my rectum.

A sociopath would live by these 6 virtues:

Wealth without Work
Pleasure without Conscience
Science without Humanity
Knowledge without Character
Politics without Principle
Commerce without Morality

These seem logically to be the key to success if I suppose you are a sociopath.

Some may have already identified these as 6 of Mohandas Karamachand Gandhi’s 7 deadly sins

The 7th “Worship without Sacrifice” I doubt would apply in the case of a sociopath

 

barf is probably rading this because he cant figure out how to change his underwear, needed some guidance

 

Joe, well thought out, but....you can't leave out "worship without sacrifice" when it comes to the psyche socio/psychopath.

Why? Because by his/her very nature, the Sociopath's main sin is SELF WORSHIP. They are all guilty of the sin of Idolatry, by making themselves GODS. In a sense, self worship is the root cause.

Like this -

Others should GIVE to me, because I deserve it. (Wealth without Work)

I DESERVE pleasure. What others feel does not matter because I am important and they are not. (Pleasure without Conscience)

What benefits me is good. (Science without Humanity)

People deserve to be exploited because they are stupid. (Knowledge without Character)

I decide what is right and wrong based on my needs, not the needs of the majority. (Politics without Principle)

You are the supplier and the consumer, I am the profiteer. (Commerce without Morality).


You get the idea, right?


Barry

 

Point taken Barry.

I was thinking that the 7th one might fit in there to. I almost put it into the category of the Jim Baker types. Who am I to judge but I cannot help but distrust his type and always pegged him as a sociopath.