Is there a GOD in the Cosmos? Prove it.

Discussion in 'More Serious Topics' started by ucicare, Dec 9, 2004.

?

Is there a GOD in the cosmos?

  1. Yes, he has a long beard and lives with the angels in heaven.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. No, he is an invention of man designed to scare little kids into being good

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Yes, and I am He

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. No, but I don't have shred of proof to back that up.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. I refuse to give an opinion on this, because I really don't know for sure.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Click here for a message from GOD.

    100.0%
  1. ucicare

    ucicare Active Member

    Messages:
    5,606
    So, here we are. Lets start with a very narrow, precise question, from which we can progress into mindless name calling and off topic rants.

    In the very beginning, eons ago, science believes that there was nothing, absolutely nothing but a tiny nucleus of atoms compressed to contain everything that now exists. A massive explosion called the "big bang" propelled everything into existence in about 1/43000 of a second.

    Question 1 - what triggered the explosion?

    Please stick to the question. Time did not exist. Nothing existed except this little nucleus of matter. Why did it explode? What triggered the big bang?

    Question 2 -Is the ability of a man to think -intelligence- a product of the big bang, or did it exist before the big bang?

    Let me know (briefly, please) what you think on just those two questions.

     
  2. Schmed

    Schmed New Member

    Messages:
    4,009
    I will attempt to keep this as brief as possible, thoiugh what you are asking is not something that could or probably even should be answered briefly but lets seee what I can do aye.

    Fact:About 15 billion years ago a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the universe. This explosion is known as the Big Bang. At the point of this event all of the matter and energy of space was contained at one point. What exisisted prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation. This occurance was not a conventional explosion but rather an event filling all of space with all of the particles of the embryonic universe rushing away from each other. The Big Bang actually consisted of an explosion of space within itself unlike an explosion of a bomb were fragments are thrown outward. The galaxies were not all clumped together, but rather the Big Bang lay the foundations for the universe.

    Now we have that established, which in turn answers the 2cnd question of did intelligence exist prior to said event. The answer is , "What exisisted prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation."

    But suffice to say it wasn't some supreme being. Mainly because if HE was supreme he would'nt need an explosion to do anything. And none of this god moves in mysterious ways crap, that won't fly here, we are looking for facts. Now Mr. Hubble found all sorts of evidence to support this Big Bang. Go look it up, I'm not your encylopedia. Mainly he discovered the echo among many other things that have been expanded on by top minds in this area of espertise. This in turns answers the second question, no one knows for sure. But once again safe to say it wasn't some magical all powerful being playing with "fireworks".

    But now I'm gonna go into what Barry's train of thought might be on this one..correct me where I go astray Barry.

    1. Everything is caused by something other than itself
    2. Therefore the universe was caused by something other than itself.
    3. The string of causes cannot be infinitely long.
    4. If the string of causes cannot be infinitely long, there must be a first cause.
    5. Therefore, there must be a first cause, namely god.

    Am I right Barry "Saint Thomas"??

    All in all I am going with scientific facts that have been backed by countless years of study and not with a primitive, primal all seeing father figure who is the cause of more death and bloodshed than disease, poverty and greed combined.
     
  3. Schmed

    Schmed New Member

    Messages:
    4,009
    Whoa and let me correct myself here, fact should read theory at begining of post...
     
  4. ucicare

    ucicare Active Member

    Messages:
    5,606
    Who stole my cool graphic?

    Cut and paste to see it. The sorry Atheist web site won't let me link to it.

    http://ssscott.tripod.com/bang.jpg


    Hey Schmed, this is not a trick question. I'm not going to run some bizarre, illogical trail with it.

    You are dead on with the idea that we really can't know for sure what was there before the big bang. Therefore we can't say for certain that there absolutely could not be something intelligent there. So I think we agree that God, or intelligence, or first cause, in some form might exist, or might not exist. Since it is impossible to prove that God does not exist, we all are Agnostic at some point in our lives
    Atheism, which states that God definitely does not exist, is just as untenable and difficult to defend as the position that states that God definitely does exist.

    What moves us from Agnosticism toward Atheism or Theism? Subjective, unprovable evidence? Yup. For both. Can subjective evidence be reliable in any way? We'll see as we go.

    Barry
     
  5. Schmed

    Schmed New Member

    Messages:
    4,009
    I do not belive in god.

    1. God
    1. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
    2. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
    3. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
     
  6. ucicare

    ucicare Active Member

    Messages:
    5,606
    You don't believe in God based on that definition, and I can't say that I blame you if that is all you have ever known.

    Barry


    Lets go fishing. Diesel fuel, cut bait and methane gas - aroma therapy for real men

     
  7. ucicare

    ucicare Active Member

    Messages:
    5,606
    why won't my links work!!!!!


     
  8. Schmed

    Schmed New Member

    Messages:
    4,009
    Still wrong, there is no evidence anywhere, ever, that proves gods (or any other way you want to phrase him)exsistence, none at all, and lack of evidence not proving otherwise is no excuse, and you say you went to college. While there IS evidence, and lots of it ,backing evolution. It's up to you. I choose tangible things over blind faith.
    I really don't understand how you peoples brains work. Oh yea you were possesed by a demon, thats proof enough for me. SOLD!! God is real!!!!
     
  9. ucicare

    ucicare Active Member

    Messages:
    5,606
    Surely to G_D you know I was joking about the demon stuff. Come on.

    Why is evolution such a big part of this for you?

    What about the fishing trip? It is an imaginary trip anyway. You might as well go.

    Barry
     
  10. Schmed

    Schmed New Member

    Messages:
    4,009
    Why is God such a big part of this for you?? AN the reason I don't go on the fishing trip in my head is because I'm not out of my head bonkers like you Barry. Whom I'm begining to think is just Hank with a new IP....
     
  11. ucicare

    ucicare Active Member

    Messages:
    5,606
    It just occurred to me that I am trying to reason with a man/boy who thinks comics books qualify as literature.


    Maybe Nursey is right. I must be insane.


    I think I'll retire from this nonsense. My garden needs my full attention.


    Barry
     
  12. Schmed

    Schmed New Member

    Messages:
    4,009
    Glad to see you give up Barry, just like ALL religous zealots when their arguements get buried under reason. Looks like absurdity did follow, glad to see you resort to trying to bash me because I enjoy reading Spider-Man comics. But let me remind you that I know they are fiction, meanwhile you believe in a magical being that created everything in the cosmos....
     
  13. ucicare

    ucicare Active Member

    Messages:
    5,606
    Please don't confuse - "not wasting any more time arguing with a fool" with "giving up in defeat because the fool has smahed me with his brilliance and indisputable logic."

    I'll continue to post some interesting things from time to time.
    I just don't feel like continuing to argue with you for the same reason I won't trying to teach a pig to sing.

    (It wastes my time and the pig likes it.)

    You have no desire to consider anything that challenges what you want to believe. I think the fact that I have steadily made changes in what I believe, as evidenced by the honest time line of my life and beliefs above, should demonstrate that I am nothing like you.

    You never gave this topic a chance to develop. I simply presented two questions, and was hoping to generate intelligent discussion fom it. You turned it into a baffling tirade.

    Your motto should be "ever learning, never knowing" Sad, Schmed, sad.

    Barry
     
  14. Schmed

    Schmed New Member

    Messages:
    4,009
    Oh hush Barry, you keep talking in circles, you show me one shred of evidence that I'm wrong and answer my question (the one I asked you and have been avoiding since we started talking about this in the other thread) and I'll take it all into consideration. But all you do is avoid direct answers or fail to present any reasonable evidence of anything at all and then call ME closeminded and ignorant. Which is in all honesty very ,very, typical of people that hold your beliefs when they cannot defend their postion. In fact I would really enjoy hearing some proof of the things you believe in it would be uplifting to many I am sure. But it's YOU that backs out of this (and you can make up any excuse you want, even one as lame as trying to make me look like the idiot) and YOU that refuses to accept anything even when the facts are right in front of your face.
     
  15. pimpchichi

    pimpchichi Active Member

    Messages:
    7,211
    *knock knock*...

    hello?.. room service...
     
  16. Dr.Roboto

    Dr.Roboto New Member

    Messages:
    979

    go away im sleeping!!
     
  17. JEFE

    JEFE New Member

    Messages:
    1,135
    Oh God, Part Deux?

    Well that went well. I don't know if this is the best place to prove or disprove the existence of God but any discussion or debate should at least start off unbiased.

    I think your poll questions should have been a little different. You didn't leave much room for any opinion that differed from your own:

    Yes, he has a long beard and lives with the angels in heaven - I'm sure that even to you, this is absurd.

    No, he is an invention of man designed to scare little kids into being good - How about just, "No"?

    Yes, and I am He - How about just, "Yes"?

    No, but I don't have shred of proof to back that up. - That's legitimate but only if you give equal time to, "Yes, but I don't have a shred of proof to back that up"

    I refuse to give an opinion on this, because I really don't know for sure. - Well what good are you then? Do you really want people to pad your poll numbers and not talk about it?

    Click here for a message from GOD. - Come on. Really


    I think it should have been:
    1. Yes, I think so.
    2. No, I don't think so.
    3. I really don't know.

    That would have at least started every one off on even ground.

    Do you guys care to start over?
     
  18. whocares?

    whocares? New Member

    Messages:
    54
    I think Jefe has a good idea. I would like to intelligently debate the question "is there a God in the cosmos" but I do not feel like arguing over theological questions or doctrinal issues. I really just wanted to talk about
    the possible presence of something greater than us.

    I just really feel that there is something greater than me. (Other than Nursey) Based on our record of self destruction, I would hate to know that humans are the smartest things in the universe.

    A few reasons that I feel that there is a God are SUBJECTIVE not scientific reasons. People are quick to say that subjective evidence is worthless, but that is not true. Subject evidence proves nothing, but it certianly points to something.

    To clarify, evolution is based largely on subjective evidence. It certainly cannot be replicated in experiments, it is not directly observable, etc. The evidence for evolution comes from the interpretation of many clues and hints, and that is pretty subjective. Proof of this is the wide range of opinions about evolution among scientists. They all agree that something is happening, they do not all agree on exactly what. What they can say is that they believe evolution is occurring based on the evidence they see, but no scientist can ever say that they can scientifically prove, that it occurs. (FYI- I belive that parts of evolution are true, I just can't buy the part about jumping species.)


    I think the same can be said for religious faith. It's "believers" seem to all agree that "something" (God, we call him) is there based on evidence that is not scientifically verifiable. A few examples follow.

    One thing that I have seen over the years is people who are really messed up, and I mean emotionally, mentally, everything. I have seen those people spend years in therapy, with little progress, and then have
    a complete reversal in a matter of days after having some type of encounter with God. It would be easy to dismiss this as a "Gestalt" type of therapy, but in my experience it is different. All the positive Gestalt experiences I have seen in people revert to baseline behavior in a matter of weeks. The religious experiences I mentioned do not. There are untold millions of people who believe that they were "changed" in an instant due to an encounter with God. Based on subjective observation of their before and after behaviors over a period of years, it is hard to agrue that "something" did not indeed occur.

    Another is this - there appears to be a genetic link, or a brain area, or something in the human mind that longs for a spiritual connection with something. It is my opiniojn that people turn to drugs and alcohol (additive behavior) to fill this need for spitual connection. (ever wonder why alcohol is called spirits?) I say this because this group (addicts) are the hardest group to treat in therapy. The only thing that really seems to heal them is a "religious experience". It is my observation that a connection with your creator fills a longing and a void that is programmed into every human. Nothing else seems to satisfy this craving for any length of time.

    More later if anyone is interested....

    Barry
     
  19. smiles

    smiles New Member

    Messages:
    1,323
    i like how you've started signing your posts as barry again.

    still though as much as i would like to believe in a god my nature gets the better of me. It's not that i don't think that a god could exist it's just that for anyone to devote themselves to any cause they must believe in it and god is something that i just don't believe in, i still wonder if what I’m doing is right sometimes, I think we all do. Everyone in here has undoubtedly done some very bad things in their time, i know i have, and even though i don't really believe in god i can't help but feel bad for my moments of weakness.

    I wish i believed in god, I think it would give life more meaning, a whole other dimension to everything we do and say throughout our cosmically insignificant time on Earth. It's just that i can't wrap my mind around the idea of GOD, i guess if he did exist we couldn't comprehend him anyways but it's the little things that bother me, like how did he originate, he was always there? how? would that mean that he exists out of time? did he originate the concept of time?

    bah whatever ignore everything above it's all just senseless dribble...
     
  20. whocares?

    whocares? New Member

    Messages:
    54
    I don't think it is senseless dribble....

    You describe the very feels and questions that any reasonably sane human asks. And the way that we want God to exist, yet fear that he doesn't, is one subjective proof to me that he might.

    You mentioned bad things you have done (pm me the details...stop it. says the angel - God would not be pleased...) If there is a sense of "bad" doesn't that mean that there has to be something "good". How can bad exist if good doen't exist? Where did "good" or "Joy" or "happiness" come from? Were these feelings creations, or did they always exist? Good God, I ramble.

    anyway, It's late here. More when I am awake.

    Barry
     

Share This Page