General Ante Gotovina has been arrested in Spain

Now that General Ante Gotovina has been arrested in Spain. What do you think will happen to the Bosnian Serbs' wartime leader, Radovan Karadzic, and his military commander, Gen Ratko Mladic. Sine they are also wanted. Will the Serbs give up there location? Or should I say will the Bosnian Serbs give up the location of these two individuals.

 

why so they can free him and crucify them? as far as i know he's charged with:

General Gotovina has been charged with failing to prevent the deaths of at least 150 Serbs in 1995, while forces under his command are accused of killing scores of Serbs and of having expelling up to 200,000 from the Krajina region, now part of Croatia.


love that word... "scores" another one of those non descript words that can eventualy be shaped into anything....

 

And it is my understanding that the Croats (Not sure I got that right) side of the story is that it was an organized pullout by the Serbs.

I must say it looks as if some deals are being made under the table. I wonder who will get double crossed in the end.

I take it by your answer that your position is that its just setup to make it look as if the judgement is an impartial one till the Serb heads are on the chopping block?

 

joe the entire war was a business deal.... i mentioned this before in one of the other threads but i drank with a former member of arkans tigers in sarajevo over the summer...... the man told me that they'd take over a city, then get racalled by karadzic only to try and take it over again later..... one of slobodan milosevic's fromer body guards released tapes of milosevic in zagreb during the war taking a walk with Tudjman in a park....

 

I don’t know Smiles seems a little overly simplistic, I probably could not even count the number of people I've ran into that talk crap about involvement in special military group complete interesting stories. I find that 90% are full of it. I ask a few questions and their stories do not pan out.

One thing I look for in a conspiracy theory like that is motive, and I just do not see the motive there.

 

Here’s the thing..... my cousin spent the entire war on grbavica..... which is as close to sarajevo as serbs were, he knew the guy and knew where the guy was and what he did..... a whole generation of youth is fucked over there, all of the 30-40 year olds that were in their prime during the war are not stable individuals, well the ones from sarajevo anyway.... my cousins deceased brother was a scout and they'd set up ambushes behind enemy lines all the time, they'd always go high as fuck because they never expected to make it back half the time.... and now people with this mentality are the future of a nation..... i saw a guy smoke heroin, i didn't even know you COULD smoke heroin

 

The war-criminal/hero thing is a bit weird. Of course the sarbs want to protect those that lead them into war. The loyalty of the serb population is countered by the disloyalty of the leaders who refuse to surrender to the international tribune even if this harms the economical recovery of the serbs.


The popular rising of the slovenians and kroats threatened serb economy, reliant as it was on military crap and set prices between different jugoslav stateowned companies. The industrially developed parts were mostly Catholic. The military controll was Orthodox.

One of the prime reasons for the amount of damage was the well-armed and prepared jugoslavian military facing the might of the us-fighter/bomber fleets. Anyone who sees the mountains on the road from Beograd to Split knows that a groundside-attack was out of the question.
Thus the strategy of semi-surgical air-attacks with infrastructure and industry and ( ops ), an embassy, in ruins.

The kroats use of that old national symbol, used by the ustasja during WW2s genocide against Serbia must have encited the serb-controlled jugo-army. The nationalist rethoric of milosevic during his rise to power played a similar part.

As for Smileys theories of conspiracy. The fact that the para-military groups withdrew from cities does not make this into some "business"-agreement. Holding is not the same as taking. ( As the war in Iraq shows )Karadzic dispositions would not have been the same as that of one of Archans men.

Heroin has been smuggled into Europe with jugoslav mules since long before the war. If we are looking for conspiracy, then a corrupt communist-party meeting druglord finances is interresting. This would trancend national borders. There were many jugoslav workers in germany before the war. ( route ) The albanians probably took over this traffic after they got their refugee-status, being bullied in Kossovo. Personally i think they met up far to late for ther to be a conspiracy of interrest. Its Chaos as well as Law out there !

 

Very interesting, it’s so hard to get a grip on actually what was at play during the various conflicts there. I was led to believe that Kosovo an area sort of sectioned off and also region that had changed hands at various times was only Serbian by name and that the large majority were Albanian. I have been also led to believe that it was actually more dangerous of a place for a Serb due to the organized crime and that the Serbs were basically trying to get better control of an almost impossible situation.

Do you think it is an exaggeration that the KLA was funded primarily by traffic of Heroine into Europe? Also I herd that ¾ cars in the Area of Albania were stolen from Serbia the organized crime had created a little economy based on exploitation of Serbian citizens. Of course this sounds like one sided news because a lot of my research was on official Serbian government websites. But of course there is usually some degree of truth to claims such as this.

 

Kosovo is holy to the serbs, no ? After that old battle and all. And due to albanian immigration and serb emmigration its now 80% albanian ethnic. Its usually a matter of conflict when societies coexist but differ.

The "western" values of freedom and all that CAN be seen as one end of a scale where supression under the rigours of Law/God is the other.

In that case me and you could quarrel wether the epitome of the "western" value-base was the free constitutions starting with the american, or the rebellion against oppression led by liberals and socialists.

Meybe better to go geographically and say that the Netherlands and California are really up there. In both cases the poor balkanians
( hehehe ), are victims of a cultural struggle that streches far beyond their territories.

Probably drugmoney in KLA. Probably in the serb para-militaries as well. As for dangers. The serbs have pushed the albanians around a lot. Policebrutality, expulsions fromn universities, Milos run down there with serb strongmen armed with picks and clubs and shovels. On the other hand. Its no doubt that the albanians are a thieving murdering backstabbing lot. ( As lots go )! Statistics are quite clear. Both in Albania and in other european countries. They are the poorest europeans after all. Perhaps beaten by the moldavians. ( I think they run sexslaves from Moldavia by the way ).

Just like the southern italians, the albanians have a strong sence of family and a protection-racket that coes all the way back to muslim occupation.

To the kroats, the serbs will play the part of the "turks".

And opposed to "western" culture, would be "eastern" culture incorporating the revers values of the "west". In this case , all thing bad and tyrannical.

Lets combine this picture with its mirror image. Where the "western" values are stowing ones old ones away in deathcamps. Giving our children the "freedom" of drugs and alcohol-induced "sex" and a list of choices so long we get lost.
The pope called it "a tyrrany of relativity", and that makes him an exponent for the "eastern" values here. :lol: Maybe a tiny fraction "west" of the Patriarch :roll:

 

And then we might debate wether Marilyn Manson or Britney Spears is the Troll in the "western" badtrip. And Joe ! I might have gone bonkers on the east-west thingy at the end there.

 

its all good XerxesX I think I see the principal of your meaning answer is: "Yeah maybe true to an extent but then there is the other side."

I think if there ever was an example of a war where we need not have put our nose its over in the Balkans. At least I'm not convinced yet because I cannot see clearly which the right side to take is. I think it is a shame but that place will always have its undercurrent of war going on even if not officially. I have concerns that with EU taking the place as a world power and all these rules regulating how a ruling government should work and rules selectively enforced it will just encourage counter culture.
An example of that here in the States is you have two basic parties one that always wants to propose more rules to bring everything under control. But the existing rules are not enforced in the first place so why make more till you; consistently enforce the ones we have? It's a method for brokering power. I hope the courts are just, fair, and consistent there with the trials going on and some sense of trust comes out of it.

As for the new culture of disrespect for elders… is it new really? Maybe it’s the live for the moment, got to have it now mentality. People forget that one day they will be in the same boat as the generation before themselves. Then again in a lot of ways things are better now than before you got to look for the bright side.

 

guys guys guys the balkans are a place that cannot be explained.... it is a web way too intricate to ever unravel..... what you guys fail to realize is that in the war there were croatians on serb side, serbs on bosnian side, bosnians on croatian side, trust me i've seen the graves and had the stories of the individuals told to me....... and we don't want to hand over these "war criminals" because we like them, we don't want to hand them over because it's a nice way of saying FUCK YOU........ no one in yugo liked Milosevic, belgrade especially, but when the PM handed him over.... well we all know how that went

i can;t really present you with any evidence, all of the articles are biased, from all sides so you can either choose to take my word for it or not... either is fine

 

As far as Bosnia, Herzegovina all that other part fine. I'm curious about the part played by the Albanians. They are never mentioned and the medias fascination with referring to them (at least here in the states) as ethnic Albanians. WTF of course they were ethnically Albanian what was that all about? Nobody ever said ethnic Serbian, ethnic Bosnian, or ethnic Croatian. What was with that fascination? The media in the states played it out as America’s obligation to assist the oppressed ethnics that were being cleansed from the region. There was not only a huge double standard about which direction the spin went on that war. It was as I can see seriously flawed in the way it was presented. As far as I’m concerned the point that if they were there illegally. If there was large scale organized effort to undermine the established government, then that government has the right to boot them outside the boundaries of there territory. Regardless of population percentages or shear numbers.

I have old black and white pictures of my great grandfather and his family he came from Ireland to New York and then straight down to Florida and settled. I have no idea what the reason is. But I know the area he lived in then is mostly Puerto Rican now personally I do not mind that I know for the most part Puerto Ricans have been migrating legally there to escape the oppression on them and get a better life than what was afforded to them in Cuba. Many came to escape oppression to them and there family specifically from Fidel Castro. But if the story were very different for instance. If a white person driving into that area was a good gamble that there car would be stolen. If it were dangerous to live there because a white person was a 20 percent minority treated as a second class citizen. If it were impossible almost for a white person to get a job there. If crimes were committed against whites in an organized manner. If on top of all of this the majority “ethnic Cuban” population decided to form there own federation and government and claim the territory. Then I would say “Ship there little tan asses back where they came from” “If they refuse to leave increase the use of force till the job is done either going back on foot or in body bags” I would not feel bad about this either.

Now I’m open minded about this. I’ll be quick to say that I do not know for sure what was happening there so I’m open to suggestion from someone who knows what was happening there did our media paint an accurate picture? The left here in the states is quick to condemn any military position that we take here in the states IF and this is the big IF the administration in charge is Republican. All these little piece-nic do-goodie full of shit talkers were either not marching in the streets during the Balkan conflict and involvement there, or the media was simply not showing it. You might be able to give ISOLATED examples but there is no comparison.

 

Quoth Smiles !:
what you guys fail to realize is that in the war there were croatians on serb side, serbs on bosnian side, bosnians on croatian side, trust me i've seen the graves

All wars like that Smiles. I realise it. Especially when the national boundaries are vague. the jesuits side by side with indigenous folks fighting spanish and portugese. France and Britain and indian tribes in one big happy slaughter. Viking and kelt against viking and kelt in Ireland.

Joeslogic ! The albanians came as migrant workers like the irish. Later many fled the mis-rule of Enver Hoxha. In Kosovo. It was not a question of albanians against the current regime. Laws were broken by the serb-dominated police.

Quoth Joe !:
I think if there ever was an example of a war where we need not have put our nose its over in the Balkans

The jugoslavian civil war could have spilled over into nearby countries. It could have encouraged rebels in the former ussr-republics. It could well spell disaster world-wide. Maybe the europeans should have to deal with it then. Maybe. But is USA REALLY interested in rearming Europe? We are competitors as well as allies after all. At the same time Europe is shying away from the duress of empire.
Its just like Smiley says itQuoth: Guys guys the balkans are a place that cannot be explained, it is a web way too intricate to ever unravel.

Yes ! Just like all human interaction. We still do it though !

But Joe ! The PuertoRicans are oppressed by USA and not Cuba i believe. The cubans are oppressed by Castro. ( But main reason for suffering is embargo ).
As for the comparison between cubans/puertoricans and kosovoalbanians. The migrants to the US are not ( heavily ) discriminated against in politics and bureaucracy.
Mediacoverage: To get the best moneymaking atention on a newsstory you have to make it so that 15yearolds can grab it. The main consumer-patterns are put in place here, and consumers are usually quite loyal to their brands after that. What can one expect when market-principles are applied to new? Death and carnage sells ! Depth and analysis does not. And then you need a drama to it. The personal story. The victims and the perpetrator. 3-2-1 Aaaand ACTION !!! :twisted: :idea: :?:

 

Xerx how can yugoslavia descriminate against a place that has 90% majority? honestly be realistic.... before troops were sent into Kosovo how many serbian police officers were shot do death? does that not count as a rebelion or at least terrorism? does a country not have the right to send in its own army within its own boundaries to quell an aprising from people that had only relatively recently moved to its lands?

 

Quoth Smiles

Xerx how can yugoslavia descriminate against a place that has 90% majority? honestly be realistic.... before troops were sent into Kosovo how many serbian police officers were shot do death? does that not count as a rebelion or at least terrorism? does a country not have the right to send in its own army within its own boundaries to quell an aprising from people that had only relatively recently moved to its lands?

You discriminate by keeping representation in lawenforcement and other branches of government away. Like apartheid. A popular rising must be quelled within a certain rule of law. When they arrived matters only as to their status as indigenous tribes or no. ( The amerindians have this right. Not the serbs, and not Joelogics irish grandfather. both 3 generations and 1200 years is to short a time for "indigenous" )
When they are IN your country AND have legal rights , its to late to complain.



I am sorry for the Jugo-unions breakup. I liked it. Exeption taken to the 13 hours at a party-headquarter/policestation. According to the market-mechanisms people are allowed to move according to their economical standing. This is tempered by the socialist( Jlogic-term) implementation of humna-rights and rules of refugee-status.

 

xerx legal status in a country that had just gone through such major reforms not to mention civil war if a fickle thing.... that's a lot like saying this: all of the mexicans in california decide to rebel because they feel like they're second hand citizens, they start assaulting the white people and shooting at law enforcment...... then when the army comes in they all flee for the border......... does not essentialy sum up the majority of the situation? how would the international community react in this situation? same as in yugoslavia?

 

Jepp its fickle. But there it is. The international rule and that. Its hard to live up to.
The difference in reaction, as to your scenario, would lie in the dif of strength between jugo and us. Nothing else. USA does pretty much what it wants nowadays. Unlike smaller military mights that need the added art of diplomacy. If USA had gone to war in Syria and Iran ( Hehehe ), and having stretched its military and ruined its morale and then ASKED for help from the int com. They would most likely get it. :wink:

 

:shock: All that work and I screwed up what I was trying to say

Ok for the sake of explination simply replace the Peurto Rico reference to Cubian when refering to the people.

I see where your comming from with regards to rule of law, however the sad truth is once the situation has gotten that bad its as if there is no point of return the answer is to not let it get that bad. Learn from the mistake shutdown the boarder. Then to do that is to loose the principal behind the idea of a free society.

Tuff decision. I do not have all the answers.

 

look my only problem is that people dont truly understand the situation yet they blindly follow what they're being force fed and regurgitate the evening news as if the word of a FOX anchor is the holy word..... in my honest opinion i do not believe that anyone (without a an agenda) who truly understood what was happening there and what the situation was would have voted or supported that campaign