America stands for life, liberty, and the pursuit .....

WASHINGTON, Oct. 25 (UPI) -- Through U.S. Vice President d*ck Cheney, the Bush administration is seeking to exempt the CIA from anti-torture provisions outlined in a Senate bill.

Last Thursday, Cheney and CIA Director Porter Goss met with the bill's sponsor, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., in a bid to make the exception for national security reasons, The Washington Post said.

On Oct. 5, the Senate voted 90 to 9 to attach to the amended version of the pending $440 billion defense appropriations bill. McCain's provision faces stiff opposition in the House, which did not include similar language in its version of the spending bill, and the White House has threatened to veto any bill that includes the McCain provision, contending that it would bind the president's hands in wartime.

"They are explicitly saying, for the first time, that the intelligence community should have the ability to treat prisoners inhumanely," Tom Malinowski, Washington advocacy director for Human Rights Watch, told the Post. "You can't tell soldiers that inhumane treatment is always morally wrong if they see with their own eyes that CIA personnel are allowed to engage in it."


http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.p...25-085239-4576r

 

How I would like humans to act, and how they actually do. Well those are
two different things.


You trivialize any sort of true moral intention, by assuming that the
“system” can be amended to prevent such things. The government is not a
person, it dose not know right from wrong it is only a tool, as such it is
dependant on those who hold it. If you got a turd in the toilet, you can’t
shape into a flower and have it become one, you gotta flush it, and god
knows this turd needs flushing.

You want change in this policy look at getting a new president and cabinet.
Hell get a new constitution. For that mater change our country’s name and
breakdown all the long lived corporate monopolies that also have so much
power. Change is good, to be alive you must change, so must our
system.

But to be honest, no mater what our laws say, we have and will always
torture during wartime. Just depends on what you want to call it and how
it’s implemented. Oddly unless you get a dictatorship or an extremely
fundamentalist government who morally oppose it with enough brute
power, it will still go on. We would not abide such strong handedness. It is
our very tolerance of diversity that will propagate such actions.

America the land of the free, and the home of the most cereal killers in the
world. When Afghanistan had its’ least amount of domestic violence it also
had no televisions and also public executions “if I’m correct”. By allowing
less censorship, we have greater ranges of social thought, and obviously a
greater ranges of action “many Hitlers and Mother Teresas”. But I hope
you agree when I say that I’m willing to chance such difficulties, and the
understanding that such things will happen “torture” even if we do change
the policy.

 

So really, it's because there is a greater freedom of expression and overall tolerance that treating prisoners of war inhumanely is to now be legitimised? When viewed like that, it becomes apparent that torture is just ~one of these things~ that you have to accept if you want to live in a progressive, civilised country. Actually, i think you'll find that it is the dictatorships and fundamentalist countries (which the U.S. is now an example of) who are known to be the greatest perpetrators of such brutality.

 

...as well as many other highly significant differences.
I don't think America's position as number one producer of serial killers and other violence is down to 'freedom of expression'. That's almost as simplistic as saying the high rates of mass murder result from the American culture of cars, McDonalds and Disney. In fact...that's probably closer to the truth. :wink:

 

alottabutt..... my reason for posting this article was because, once we get past the ridiculous notion of saddam having WMD's and the capability to pose a threat to the US with them, we reach the running American reason for invading..... Operation Iraqi Liberation... later changed to Operation Iraq Freedom (for unexplained reasons)..... who remembers when all CNN showed were Saddams torture chambers and the Baath party headquarters and the sob stories of men being abducted in the middle of the night never to be seen again and held without trial.... Chaaa sounds familiar to anyone? no? and now they want to go about the same thing PUBLICALY, at least Saddam did it behind closed doors, not even his oppressed, poor, starving, stupid, towlheaded populace :roll: would stand for that ... it is safe to say that all systems of power play by their own rules.... but in a democratic system for the populace not to rebel against amendments which make a debacle of even the most basic of freedoms i find ..... American

 

Smiles I'm all for changing the policy, but my point was that you've got to
change the people, I don't care what you do with the laws. The people
have to be vigilant about not wanting such action, law or no law this
administration is not heart broken about the things they've done. I also
understand we are sending a message of hypocrisy, as I said the rules
don’t mater because the people who are to enforce them don’t see it that
way, nor will they ever.

I think we all know why Bush decided to invade Iraq, Jesus told him to.


Yes Nursey. A greater range of thought propagates a greater range of
action. Do we accept wrong because of it? no. Is it justification for
wrongs? no. But should we ignore it's partial cause because we don't want
the implications to smudge our almost religious sense of what "freedom of
thought" is? Also another no.

We could beat our soldiers in boot camp and make them watch other
soldiers be publicly executed for disobedience. Then whatever law was
implemented would be followed with far fewer surprises, both at the foot
soldier and Officer level. But as I said we would have to strong-arm with
deplorable disciplinary actions. Torture happens during war time, we
should cope with it and discipline when it is found out, understanding that it
will happen doesn’t mean giving it justification.

 

So, does that mean that America has the highest incidence of mass murder and some of the highest rates of other crimes because they enjoy the widest range of thought on the planet? What about a country with a low crime rate such as Switzerland? Are they living woefully narrow, uninspired existences compared to their American counterparts? And they don't have any executions at all in Switzerland, nevermind public ones, so surely their murderous urges should be even less tempered? And "if i'm correct", they also have televisions in Switzerland. Maybe they don't watch them preferring instead to go and tend to goats in the Alps.

America also has the highest incidence of mental illness on the planet. Would this not surely be a more highly significant factor when attempting to pinpoint the root cause of such extreme behaviour as mass murder? Or is mental illness also a result of America's 'lack of repression'? What about other factors such as diet and social structure for example?

Sorry, but your arguement that America has the highest incidence of extreme societal disfunction because of the 'freedom' it enjoys strikes me as crude and simplistic, when as far as i can see, it is despite it.

 

You are bahaving as if these are normal circumstances when they're not. The rules... which came straight from the top...were to defy international law regarding torture...not to uphold it. And now they are going ahead and publically recognising this as official policy.

 

" Tom Malinowski, Washington advocacy director for Human Rights Watch, told the Post. "You can't tell soldiers that inhumane treatment is always morally wrong if they see with their own eyes that CIA personnel are allowed to engage in it."

Sure you can. Soldiers are not children. They realize that they are not dealing with military forces, they are dealing with terrorists, that are held accountable by no governing entity. Extreme measures taken by CIA personnel, are not military in nature. Soldiers do not make good cops, shop keepers, or babysitters. They are basically rifleman. Inhumane treatment, or torture, requires specialized training, which they don't get. In fact, they are just like you. They know right from wrong, and the gray area in between. In my opinion, the troops should all be pulled out and be replaced entirely by the CIA.

 

1
CIA personell or Soldiers. First, many soldiers are just like children. They are trained to believe in "daddy" no matter what. In the field they will reduce their sense of humanity and loose restraints. CIA is not equipped to fight highly motivated mujahedins face on. They might try to peg mosque-bombings on other fractions though.
2
If we are to let controll of the arab countries go to the arabs, then we must say good by to the oil. We have only half of it left now, and the world can probably take 50 to 100 more years of this abuse and by then we are dead anyway. Right ?
3
A peacealternative is no alternative. At a given time the GORP will find that extra-constitutional measures will have to be taken to protect the democracy from itself. The 5% richest own about 80% of the american money. Just like 200 years ago. You think they will let the you spoil this by creating a democracy or saving the planet or wanting to survive ?

 

lucy harper... how many professional soldiers do you know that have seen combat? how many regular people do you know that during a civil war had no choice but to grab a gun and defend their home? you are speaking from an uninformed, uneducated, and most of all inexperienced perspective so therefore i wont bother pointing out the craters in your post

 

smiles... how many professional soldiers do you know that have seen combat? how many regular people do you know that during a civil war had no choice but to grab a gun and defend their home? you are speaking from an uninformed, uneducated, and most of all inexperienced perspective so therefore i wont bother pointing out the craters in your post

 

lalalallal well... you are about to feel very fucking stupid.... i am form Serbia.... my whole family was in the war... i lived in the war.... my fauther faught along with all of my male relatives... i lost a first cousin there.... i just spent the entire summer there getting drunk with shop owners turned wanted war criminals - litterally..... i've seen things that'll give an inbred white trash peice of shit like you nightmares as long as u live..... kindly pretend like you never made that ignorant ass comment about how "rgular ol' joes donns know HOW to torture it takes training for that" ... how hard is it to cut an ear off? or to sodomise someone? what special extraction techniques do you need to learn before you're caipable of gouging an eye out or cutting someones nutsack off? raping their daughter infront of them? lucy harper..... stick to photoshop

 

PWNED.... like a cheap trinket!1

 

oops.. cold sober.. how immature of me...

 

Smiles actually unless I missed something I thought Lucy had a few good points to make. It made enough sense to me that I was then reflecting on your negative response and thought hmmm, :?: Judging by the mannerisms and just the way this user talks I would say he is from the U.S. I may be wrong but you seem like the typical ... never mind. I'll call your bluff on that I do not think your from Serbia. I have done a bit of research and am fascinated by the culture there and believe that I am more sympathetic to the Serb nationalists than the Albanians as well and other Muslim factions. Why should I believe you are a serb?

 

heh this is an interesting game to play..... lets first reflect on why you wouldn't think i'm a serb

 

OK Lucy looks like you can feel vindicated just by smiles reply you can tell. If there are any Serbs reading this post please feel free to let me know I would love to hear from your perspecive on the Balkin / Kosovo situation. It seems like such a strange and complet mix of issues with something like 7 different nationalities all with varying issues. Send me a note.

 

joewslogic.. if you look back through smiles' posts throughout the time he's been here.. you'll see that he's mentioned his serbian background many times..
if he's lying about it he's a good liar.. consistency

and he looks like a serb too

 

agreed pimp..... u can always tell a serb form a mile away if u from europe.... joes logic who mentioned kosovo? 7 nationalities? i'm am really finding this rather amusing.... joe your e-sense is wayyy off on this one kindly stop trying before i make you feel how lucy looks