When the truth confronts, absurdity is sure to follow"

See i do believe that a select few in each culture made different "gods".What a better way of controlling your people than something they cannot see and dare not disobey just incase there is a all mighty power.
I cannot believe that there is a God watching over all of us.I wish i did believe because things that have happened in my life would be eased with the knowledge that particular loved ones were somewhere nice looking in on us every now and then.But i don't so it can be hard.
I remember a particulary long journey with a born again christian who managed to get the subject round to god after i was explaining to my Sis how clouds were formed.He disagreed with me insisting that God made them.Anyway we got onto the subject of who gets into heaven,much like Doc spoke about he said a child murder like Mirah Hindley would get into heaven because she had asked for forgiveness where as a child who had not been christened would not.
I understood from then on there is no point argueing with people who are like that because they believe what they believe and nothing you say will ever make them stray from what they believe.And it seems alot of religions have the same point of view.As i said before , all made up to scare people.
Oh also glad your not a bible basher Barry ( even though thats a cool name), i have nothing against people who believe in God everyone is free to believe whatever they like as long as they dont try to push any of it on me or tell me it's God's will.I hate that term.

 

A person becomes a person when they develop a personality I would guess. So a fetus would be a potential person. A human becomes a human when it is identifiable as a human by a simple DNA test that confirms its genetic blueprint as a human (I would venture.) I wonder if a fetus is identifiable as a human by DNA testing?

Maybe a fetus is really just a "blob of flesh" that is a "potential human person". Therefore it makes perfect sense to kill it if we want to, because it is an inconvenience to us. Since it is nothing anyway, and it is all about us.

So if I was able to develop a secret germ that would kill only the "potential human persons" conceived by Islamic terrorists, I would have found the perfectly moral, ethical, and pure way to wage the war on terrorism, wouldn't you say?

So, is it OK if I release a germ that causes all future pregnancies of terrorist and those who sympathize with them to spontaneously abort during the third trimester? We win the war through attrition, and no humans are killed or even injured. Sounds perfect to me.


Barry

 

[/quote]
See i do believe that.....etc.[/quote]


UT, that was a pretty heart felt and sincere response. Thanks.
(No kidding, I mean it.)

Barry

 

Abortion is a very tough subject.There is no clear cut answer to wether it is right or wrong.There are cases when i can see 100% why that woman had an abortion and there are other cases when i have been absolutly digusted by the woman having.Such as someone who has been raped and falling pregnant, now i can understand some women would be able to go though with the pregnancy and see past the fact that the child was born out of violence but other women would not beable to do that and it would harm them to carry on with the pregnancy.Now i understand it is not the childs fault how it was concieved but we have to decide at some point which life has the greater need at that precise moment in time.When abortion was illegal women died having abortions and they knew that the risks were great when they went down that road but they were desperate enough to take the risk.If someone is that desperate then they should have the option of having it done safely.
Now on the other hand there are cases where i think it's become to easy to have one, go in see a couple of doctors, they sign a form saying you are not mentally/ physically able to continue with the pregnancy and Bob's your uncle in the next week and it's all over.Money can buy u most things.What they don't tell you about is the mess afterwards.They take the money happily enough throw a couple of leaflets at you and remark casually about counciling if you need it and then let you get on.They don't tell you how you might feel afterwards, how even though everyone saying " oh you made the right choice" something inside you is telling you that you just killed your baby.They don't tell you about how for years to come you will think about it every anniversery and when it's due date was.Getting shit faced to block it out and all the poor bastards around you having to listen to you babble on.
They say a high percentage of women who have abortions fall pregnant again with 2 years of having it and keep it.Maybe some of these clinics need to inform and support women a little better than they do.
I do agree with abortions and think they are a necessity, i just think some people don't think hard enough about such a major life changing experience.

 

so will these terrorist parents still have a choice?... ermmm nope...

i'm not particularly pro-abortion as such barry neither am i anti-abortion.. i am pro-choice...


interesting concept this racially selective germ warfare thingummy though... i 'm sure i read about it in some rightwingthinktank policy document

"... the art of warfare ... will be vastly different than it is today ...
“combat” likely will take place in new
dimensions ... advanced forms of biological warfare that can “target” specific
genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a
politically useful tool."

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

oh yes.. there it is

 

Darn, I really thought it was an original idea. I hate it when someone steals my ideas before I even have them.

Barry

 

Hmm..I think that whatever a woman decides to do with her body should be her choice.

I don't understand what's so horrible about abortions. I mean it's better than her having the baby and not having any idea what to do with it. But once you have a child, pretty sure it'd be damn hard to give up. So abortion is kind of an easy way out. And I don't think fetus or babies have personalities til they're old enough; when they start realizing their surroudnings and how to adapt to them.



..might I say: Margaret Sanger.

 

I must be under some kind of spell. I find myself admiring another reply by UT. Insight and honesty, what a combo.

Are you surprised to learn that I might actually believe that abortion may be necessary in some cases? I am not completely anti-abortion, I am just anti-easy, poorly informed, act of convienience, substitute for birth control, repetitive, on demand no matter what, abortions.

I also opposed to the idea that the fetus is not human. If we are going to suck a human apart on the choice of another human, at least acknowledge the act for what it is.

As far as choice - the woman had a choice not to get pregnant in the first place didn't she? (and don't cry rape. Pregancies occurring from rape that end in abortion make up a miniscule number of those performed.)

Back to the question though - what other absurdities or truths are you aware of?

Barry

 

hey, we could alway just start castrating men. that way no innocent blobs of tissue would die. how bout that Barry? You didnt leave the church, the church left you.

Of the 46 million abortions that occur each year, roughly 20 million are performed under unsafe conditions because of poorly trained providers, unsanitary circumstances, and crude and dangerous methods of self-inducement. Each year, an estimated 80,000 women die from complications of unsafe abortion, accounting for at least 13 percent of global maternal mortality. The vast majority of these deaths are preventable. Unsafe abortion also causes long-term health problems that range from chronic pelvic pain to infertility (AGI, 1997; WHO, 1998a; AGI, 1999).

Women often choose abortion when faced with an unwanted pregnancy. Unplanned and unwanted pregnancies are a fact of life. They occur for a number of reasons: failure to use contraception; lack of access to family planning information and supplies because of political or economic circumstances; pressure from a sexual partner to not use contraceptives; contraceptive failure; and changes in circumstances that make a wanted pregnancy unwanted, such as abandonment, health problems, and financial difficulties (WHO, 1998a). In every society, across all religious, cultural, and economic differences, women face unplanned pregnancies as a result of trying to negotiate the difficult balance between having sexual relations and choosing whether and when to have children.

As long as there are unplanned and unwanted pregnancies, abortion will be a fact of life. When a woman decides to end an unwanted pregnancy, she will often go to extreme lengths to do so, regardless of whether the procedure is safe or legal. The rates at which women seek abortion are strikingly similar for women living in developed and developing countries (AGI, 1999). However, the chances of receiving a safe abortion vary widely and are determined by a variety of socioeconomic, legal, and cultural factors.

The Scope of Unplanned Pregnancy

Globally, nearly four in 10 pregnancies are unplanned (AGI, 1999). Many unplanned pregnancies result from the nonuse of contraceptives or from contraceptive failure. Couples may not use contraceptives because of traditional cultural beliefs and/or stigmas associated with particular methods. The World Health Organization estimates that between eight and 30 million unplanned pregnancies are the result of inconsistent or incorrect use of contraceptive methods, or from method-related failure (WHO, 1998a).

The Unmet Need for Family Planning

The sheer number of unplanned pregnancies — about 80 million each year — illustrates the enormous unmet need for family planning. Currently, 350 million couples around the world lack access to information about contraception and to modern methods of family planning. Between 120 and 150 million married women want to limit or space their pregnancies but lack the information and services to do so (WHO, 1998a; AGI, 1999).

How Many Women Undergo Abortion?

Each year, 46 million women around the world undergo abortion. Twenty-six million women who undergo abortion do so in countries with liberal abortion laws. The remaining 20 million undergo abortion in countries where abortion is either restricted or illegal (AGI, 1999).

Why Do Women Choose Abortion?

The reasons that women cite for choosing abortion are broadly similar throughout the world: Women may want to stop or postpone childbearing. They may have socioeconomic reasons for ending a pregnancy — they may not be able to afford the costs of having and raising a child, or they may want to continue pursuing their educational and career goals. Others may choose abortion because of relationship problems or because their pregnancy is the result of rape or incest. And still others may cite age or health reasons — they feel too young or too old to have a baby or that pregnancy will affect their own or their baby's health (AGI, 1999).

Factors that Determine the Safety of Abortion

When performed by trained providers in sanitary conditions, abortion is one of the safest medical procedures. But for many women, abortion can be cost-prohibitive, and trained providers can be hard to come by. Because of these limitations, a woman may delay getting an abortion until later in her pregnancy when the risk of complications rises.

In developing countries, regardless of the legal status of abortion, poor women in rural areas are at most risk of undergoing unsafe abortion. Trained providers may not be available or affordable. Women might choose to go to traditional practitioners or to self-induce abortion. Many of the methods used are based on cultural or traditional practices — prolonged, hard massage of the abdomen; repeated blows to the abdomen; insertion of stones, twigs, or sharp wire objects into the vagina and cervix; drinking or flushing the vagina with caustic substances, for example (AGI, 1999).

The Scope of Unsafe Abortion

Every day, 55,000 unsafe abortions take place — 95 percent of them in developing countries (WHO, 1998a). Worldwide, the maternal mortality rate due to unsafe abortion is 0.4 per 100 unsafe abortions. The highest rates occur in the developing world — 0.6 in Africa and 0.4 in Asia ( Mundigo & Indriso, 1999). In the developed world, the risk of dying from an unsafe abortion is one in 3,700 procedures (Mundigo & Indriso, 1999), but in Europe (primarily Eastern Europe) the risk is one in 1,900 procedures. In Latin America and the Caribbean the risk is one in 900 procedures, in Asia (excluding Japan, Australia, and New Zealand) it is one in 250, and in Africa it is one in 150 (WHO, 1998a; WHO, 1998b).

Another way to look at this disparity is to note overall death rates from abortion (whether safe or unsafe): in the developed world there are 0.2-1.2 maternal deaths per 100,000 abortions, whereas in the developing world (excluding China) the rate soars to 330 maternal deaths per 100,000 abortions. In Africa the rate is 680 per 100,000 abortions, in South and Southeast Asia it is 283, and in Latin America it is 119 per 100,000 abortions (AGI, 1999).

Because of anti-abortion social stigma and/or poverty, in the developing world, it is unsafe abortion, either self-induced or performed by an unqualified abortionist, that non-married adolescent girls most often seek — regardless of whether or not abortion is legal in their country. Because adolescents often seek unsafe abortions and because they tend to wait to seek abortion later than do older women, they are at greater risk of complications. Teenagers comprise a significant proportion of victims of unsafe abortion. A study done in Tanzania found that nearly a third of the victims of unsafe abortion were teenagers, of whom almost half were 17 years of age or younger; about one in every four were students in primary or secondary school. A safe procedure is very expensive in Tanzania and, therefore, unaffordable for most non-married young women there (Mundigo & Indriso, 1999; Mpangile et al., 1999).

Restrictive legislation is associated with higher rates of unsafe abortion and correspondingly high mortality. In Romania, for example, abortion-related deaths increased sharply when the law became very restrictive in 1966 and fell after 1990 with a return to the less restrictive legislation (WHO, 1998a).

Complications Resulting from Unsafe Abortion

The World Health Organization estimates that between 10 and 50 percent of women who undergo unsafe abortion have complications (WHO, 1998a). The most common complications are incomplete abortion, tears in the cervix, perforation of the uterus, fever, infection, septic shock, and severe hemorrhaging. It is estimated that 80,000 women die each year due to complications from unsafe abortion (WHO, 1998a). However, the actual number of deaths may be much greater because women who die outside of hospitals or in emergency wards may not have autopsies performed, and may not be identified as victims of unsafe abortion. (Mpangile, et. al, 1999; Paxman, et. al, 1993). Other serious long-term health consequences faced by women who have unsafe abortions include chronic pelvic pain, problems getting and staying pregnant, infertility, tubal blockage, and ectopic pregnancy (AbouZahr & Åhman, 1998).


Treatment of Complications from Unsafe Abortion

Whether a woman receives appropriate medical care for complications resulting from unsafe abortion depends largely on the proximity and availability of emergency facilities and trained health providers. Social, cultural, legal, and economic barriers may prevent women from accessing treatment as well. While most urban centers have hospitals, many poor women in rural areas simply don't have access to medical treatment when faced with complications. Treatment can be costly as it may require hospitalization, staff time, antibiotics, and blood transfusions.


How to Prevent Unsafe Abortion?

At the 1994 International Conference on Population and Development (ICPD), the world's nations agreed that unsafe abortion is a major public health concern, and that governments should work to eliminate unsafe abortion and make abortion safer in countries where it is legal (UN, 1994; WHO, 1998a). Eliminating unsafe abortion requires an integrated, comprehensive approach involving health workers, policymakers, and advocates. Societies must

ensure high-quality, compassionate treatment for complications resulting from unsafe abortion that includes post-abortion and family planning counseling
provide universal access to family planning
reform restrictive laws and policies that hinder the availability of safe services and trained providers
ensure safe abortion services
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/library/abortion/unsafeab.html

 

Yikes Rat, do you work for planned parenthood or something? That was a mega post.

Barry

Oh yeah - the Church may have left me, but my faith was never in the church anyway. I am not much different after being castrated, oops, I mean excommunicated.

Barry

 

I started this post earlier this evening when it appeared you were leaving, but i think it still warrants posting despite your arrogance having slightly deflated.

Well, this is a rather ironic thread! In fact, i'd say it was quite an absurd reaction to your discovery that the truth was far from what you had so self assuredly and arrogantly declared! Perhaps there's a lesson for you to be learned right here, but that would take a certain degree of humility and large doses of honesty, and that takes quite a bit of courage and inner strength. You appeared to have no shortage of those when it came to your initial dealings with what you no doubt perceived to be a 'cakewalk' (to coin another arrogant little man's famous term) regarding your mental abilities in relation to the rest of us here, i mean, 'who'd have thunk' that a bunch of unruly, young 'netcreants' ( as i imagine we probably appeared ) might actually be the ones to challenge your comfortable, well set beliefs, what - with all that formal training designed to compartmentalise life to a formulaic blueprint which you could just slap over each personality, giving you a 'neat' little psychological profile of each one of the cyber-specimens you had under the microscope here?

As far as 'life after death' goes, my own experience and observations ( and understanding the 'Universal Key' ) lead me to believe that life is the equivalent of that small part of an iceberg that is visible dazzling, pellucid above the waves...insignificant in terms of mass proportionally speaking, and yet the part of greatest beauty that highlights the dazzling crystalline formation in the suns gleaming rays... and 'non-being' the equivalent of the great colossus that lurks imperceptibley - but with far greater bearing - just below the surface. The 'spirit' of the iceberg exists in its entirety, with no divide apart from the one we perceive.



And i think saying "'God' doesn't exist" because of our bad experience of religeon is a case of 'chucking out the baby with the bathwater'. I believe that we are God when reduced to our most concentrated essence 'on the atomic level' all the way down to the core of our being where vortexes of energy resonate with our true instantaneous nature, and that on that level we are humming molecularly together as one, and that 'outside' of ourselves we are all one at the point of greatest expanse of universe and the greatest expanse of our being, and that both extremes of the poles outer and inner are one indivisible point of Being, which is what i am referring to when i say 'God'. And here in the middle, lieth 'you', 'me' and

 

the whole problem little girl from texas, is that there is an inherent mess to clean up, biologicaly and mentaly. as previously stated, they dont tell you what happens or how you feel. sure you can go drop 300 on a abortion for your fuck up while fucking, but why should a innocent baby be sacrificed, for you accident? but i dont believe that a fetus is fully aware of its surroundings nore is it capable of producing an emotion or personality. i beleive in pro choice, but also think that abortions should be based on situation, if the mother is ill, if the baby will be born with severe defects, if the mother has been raped, or if the mothers finacial situation threatens the survival of other offspring ect. just as in nature there is a survival of the fittest, but in this sociaty we have the mean and ability to avoid this kind of thing. its a difficult and complex decision and topic to deal or debate.

 

No I dont work for PP. I am woman who has a right to control my reproductive system since no man is going to do that for me, nor has a right to do that for me. So you got kicked out of Church, but its all okie dokie cause you werent really that into it anyway. I understand fully where you are coming from. The more you post, the more it becomes obvious what your true colors are.

 

yeah, you want woman controlled and punished for spreading their legs. THEY SHALL REPENT AND SUFFER!

The health and well-being of women and children suffer the most in states that have the most stringent anti-abortion laws.

Compared to pro-choice states, anti-abortion states spend far less money per child on a range of services such as foster care, education, welfare, and the adoption of children who have physical and mental disabilities (Schroedel, 2000).

The states that have the strongest anti-abortion laws are also the states in which women suffer from lower levels of education and higher levels of poverty, as well as from a lower ratio of female-to-male earnings. They also have a lower percentage of women in the legislature and fewer mandates requiring insurance providers to cover minimum hospital stays after childbirth (Schroedel, 2000).

 

The Rat wrote

And that is a good thing or a bad thing? I didn't know that letting my "true colors" come out was anything to be ashamed of. I thought we were all about open discussion, open minds, diversity, acceptance, etc.

Strange how tolerance is such a one way street.

Barry [/quote]

 

no not really, but i believe that they should be responcible in their actions.

 

oh yeah and if you think i just mean the ladies, no guys too. we are no different in who shares the blame or responcibility

 

Proof that God exists? I'll give you just one, and then I'll ask you to give me one shred of evidence that God doesn't exist.

6 million people living and prospering smack in the middle of 6 Billion people who hate them with every shred of their fiber, and daily plotting their destruction. Simple mathmatical odds (can you say 1000 to 1 ) prove that some supernatural force keeps the nation of Israel in existence, as predicted 4000 years ago.

I'm patiently waiting on that one piece of evidence from you.

As far as evolution - it will one day be mentioned in the same breath with the flat earth and leeches. It is one of the greatest hoaxes every sprung on the public.

FYI -I am a scientist with the US Dept of Ed. accredted degrees to prove it. I don't believe literal 7 day creation fables, nor do I accept the fable that the modern human evolved from an ape man. You amaze me stating that you will show me skulls. You are so quick to accept the so called "evidence" offered by unreliable sources concerning evolution, yet you reject everything else as "lies" that our "Government" produces.

Two questions for you to research -

1. With modern DNA testing now at a state of great reliability, why are all the fossil records testing out to be either clearly primate or clearly hominiod? Why is the genetic "missing link" between ape and man still missing?

2. How is it possible for organisms to mutate from simpler to more complex designs? Doesn't a simple law of nature teach us that when things are left alone, they migrate toward the simplest of elements? For example, if you leave a car in you backyard for 100 years, it becomes a rust heap rather than a delorean doesn't it? I can accept the idea that Humans are evolving, as long as you state that we are deteriorating rather than progressing. (I can see the human race being reduced to primordal soup.)

So, if evolution is true, then a few billion years from now we should be perfect, all knowing, disease free, omnipotent, and immortal. Dang, that would make us God wouldn't it! So if you believe in evolution, then you have to believe that there is, or will be Gods. You and Nursey need to talk. She is already there with this idea.

Lots more where that came from.

One shred of proof that God doesn't exist. Waiting on that patiently.

Barry

 

my personal experience with women/girls who have had abortions has led me to conclude that although abortions should be legal and at the discretion of the woman, we should also educate and make sure that whose who have had abortions fully understand the consequences, both physical and mental, which abortion brings about

i state this simply because i know a person who has had three abortions in a span of two years... although i still believe it is her choice i can't help but make light of the wasteful disregard she exibits... it should be a last means as opposed to a regular fix