Vegetable Barryani?

[Nursey]

Dear Barry,
How can you be certain you are in full control of your faculties when your mind is chemically managed, as yours is? What if the discord you experienced before being medicated was not the result of random chaos, but of a psyche that was expressing (in an 'unearthed' destructive outburst) elements of consciousness that couldn't integrate into the societal conditioned mindset you have been brought up with? Anything that is repressed needs to find an outlet. Using artificial means to prevent this will surely Bar you from ever fully realising yourself?
Nursey

[ucicare]

Dear Barry,
How can you be certain you are in full control of your faculties when your mind is chemically managed, as yours is? What if the discord you experienced before being medicated was not the result of random chaos, but of a psyche that was expressing (in an 'unearthed' destructive outburst) elements of consciousness that couldn't integrate into the societal conditioned mindset you have been brought up with? Anything that is repressed needs to find an outlet. Using artificial means to prevent this will surely Bar you from ever fully realising yourself?
Nursey

Either someone hacked Nursey's account, or Nursey is waist deep in her seasonal manic episode.

This doesn't sound like the intelligent (though occasionally delusional) Nursey that I know.

[TheGrimJesus]

It sounds a lot like Fake Dan

[Joeslogic]

Actually I think it's quite a fascinating perspective. And at the least somewhat true from my perspective. I can think of examples where persons I knew growing up in really strict controlled environments. As adults have a total lack of self control. While alternatively persons who grew up in very wide open anything goes environment (and did in as far as the family went.) Turned out to be alter egos of their environment.

And that is I think a good part of what Nursey is saying.

As for weather medication can play the role of stealing hard learned life lessons. I think however you have to look at all situations on a case by case basis.

Could the cure be simple discussion to an unbiased outside observer that can be trusted to suggest what one might expect from the medication and what possible negative side effects and try to counter any placebo effect the person taking the medication might have?

[chester grape]

Actually I think it's quite a fascinating perspective. And at the least somewhat true from my perspective. I can think of examples where persons I knew growing up in really strict controlled environments. As adults have a total lack of self control. While alternatively persons who grew up in very wide open anything goes environment (and did in as far as the family went.) Turned out to be alter egos of their environment.

And that is I think a good part of what Nursey is saying.

As for weather medication can play the role of stealing hard learned life lessons. I think however you have to look at all situations on a case by case basis.

Could the cure be simple discussion to an unbiased outside observer that can be trusted to suggest what one might expect from the medication and what possible negative side effects and try to counter any placebo effect the person taking the medication might have?

Huh?

[Nursey]

Either someone hacked Nursey's account, or Nursey is waist deep in her seasonal manic episode.

This doesn't sound like the intelligent (though occasionally delusional) Nursey that I know.

Interrresssstinggg...Barry's drugs appear to have stripped him of the ability to perceive any flaws in the distorted version of reality they provide. Either that or i struck too resonant a chord for his liking. Either way, we will have to just ignore his comments on this matter and view him as our lab specimen while he is unter zer control.:!:

Here is another way to illustrate my point:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/nursey/mathematicalmindwarp.gif
Imagine if these mathematical diagrams represented the psyches of the same person, but the top one representing a picture of a healthy, balanced mind, with everything where it should be in order to function smoothly as a whole, the lower one representing mental discord, of which the unfilled box (which represents for example, random, destructive behaviour and/or other symptoms of disharmony) is the visible outcome, like a psychological pressure valve.
Rather than simply rearranging the pieces until they fit together as in the upper diagram, which is all that is required to bring it all back under the persons control - nothing needing to added or taken away... the empty box is medicated (or crudely filled) in order to give the appearance of addressing the problem, and making the person appear 'whole'. In actual fact, the problems remain intact, but now, with the empty box filled, there will never be any way of rearranging the pieces to fit and achieve a true state of balance.

[Nursey]

Could the cure be simple discussion to an unbiased outside observer that can be trusted to suggest what one might expect from the medication and what possible negative side effects and try to counter any placebo effect the person taking the medication might have?

Or could the cure be simple discussion with an unbiased, outside observor who can be trusted to help the patient figure out which portion of their triangle (psyche) is top, bottom left, bottom right and middle?

[pimpchichi]

Either someone hacked Nursey's account, or Nursey is waist deep in her seasonal manic episode.

This doesn't sound like the intelligent (though occasionally delusional) Nursey that I know.

your post sounds more like the great counsellor can't admit having a chocolate shilling in his purse... nurseys analysis sounded pretty fucking insightful to me.. and her follow up reply only concreted it

[ucicare]

Either someone hacked Nursey's account, or Nursey is waist deep in her seasonal manic episode.

This doesn't sound like the intelligent (though occasionally delusional) Nursey that I know.

your post sounds more like the great counsellor can't admit having a chocolate shilling in his purse... nurseys analysis sounded pretty fucking insightful to me.. and her follow up reply only concreted it

I will be very honest here - I really don't have a clear idea of what Nursey is talking about. Does she think that me taking Ritalin for AD/HD has somehow made my mind defective?

The evidence points to the exact opposite. Prior to diagnosis and treatment at age 30, I was really having problems in nearly every area of my life. Post treatment, I have been steadily improving in every area to the point that today I would call myself extremely stable and capable.

What evidence do you need to validate stability and mental clarity?

[DangerousDan]

Either someone hacked Nursey's account, or Nursey is waist deep in her seasonal manic episode.

This doesn't sound like the intelligent (though occasionally delusional) Nursey that I know.

your post sounds more like the great counsellor can't admit having a chocolate shilling in his purse... nurseys analysis sounded pretty fucking insightful to me.. and her follow up reply only concreted it

I will be very honest here - I really don't have a clear idea of what Nursey is talking about. Does she think that me taking Ritalin for AD/HD has somehow made my mind defective?

The evidence points to the exact opposite. Prior to diagnosis and treatment at age 30, I was really having problems in nearly every area of my life. Post treatment, I have been steadily improving in every area to the point that today I would call myself extremely stable and capable.

What evidence do you need to validate stability and mental clarity?



Maybe you can tell us how you think ritalin is different than cocaine aside from doses and drug half life.

[DangerousDan]

http://www.udel.edu/chemo/teaching/CHEM465/SitesF02/Prop26b/Rit%20Page4.html

coke head.

[Joeslogic]

I think the way that you have to look at it is from a many faceted approach. From one direction medication could be prescribed that would merely be preventing a person from perceiving a problem that truly exists. From a different facet you would see that the drug actually corrected a problem. While drugs can be miss prescribed I would not assume that is always the case. Like saying that shuffling parts of a triangle always leave a hold just because it was proven that it could. Does not mean that it always does.

[ucicare]

Maybe you can tell us how you think ritalin is different than cocaine aside from doses and drug half life.


maybe like this -
"cocaine has a much higher affinity for the serotonin transporter, giving the feeling of euphoria not achieved by taking methylphenidate."
(quoting your own source by the way)

That would make them pretty different Dan. Ritalin gives you the mental focus of cocaine, without the addictive effects of euphoria. In other words - no high, just help with paying attention.

Oh, and dose does matter. Ritalin is taken in very small controlled doses at least 4 hours apart. Cocaine typically is not.

PS - Pull your skirt down Dr Dan. Your dumbass is showing.

[DangerousDan]

Maybe you can tell us how you think ritalin is different than cocaine aside from doses and drug half life.


maybe like this -
"cocaine has a much higher affinity for the serotonin transporter, giving the feeling of euphoria not achieved by taking methylphenidate."
(quoting your own source by the way)

That would make them pretty different Dan. Ritalin gives you the mental focus of cocaine, without the addictive effects of euphoria. In other words - no high, just help with paying attention.

Oh, and dose does matter. Ritalin is taken in very small controlled doses at least 4 hours apart. Cocaine typically is not.

PS - Pull your skirt down Dr Dan. Your dumbass is showing.
Well Dr. Phil I think if you read what I posted it said that people can't tell the difference between the effects of the two. Just because it has a higher affinity for some serotnin receptors doesn't amount to a hill of beans if it can't be demonstrated to have different effects on mood in real live subjects. Basic prinicple of research. Thats like saying an antidepressant theoretically stimulates the right receptors in the brain so it should be used as an antidepressant even if the stupid people taking them can't feel the effects and are dropping like flies from suicide attempts. People think just because something is prescribed to them no matter what it is that it is beyond reproach then they are perfectly willing to caste all their ridicule on the junkies when there are tons of junkies on prescrition pills. 20 bucks says you or your wife is taking Lortabs.

[ucicare]

At this point I no longer believe that you are a medical student Dan. Your basic ignorance of medicine and your stereotypical categorizations are representative of a backwoods schoolboy with a subscription to the National Enquirer. Unlike you, I actually practice with real patients every day. Please stop acting like you have a clue what you are talking about.

As far as the "20 bucks says you or your wife is taking Lortabs" bet, you lose. But being a loser if nothing knew for you now is it "Doctor"?

[Checkmate]

You can't have paitents Barry, you're not a doctor. You have clients, stop letting your delusions of grandeur get the better of you. :D

[Nursey]

I will be very honest here - I really don't have a clear idea of what Nursey is talking about.

Oh ok, well it would have been helpful if you could have said that in the first place instead of just trying to portray me as stupid or insane. I thought it was quite an interesting discussion to initiate, personally.

Does she think that me taking Ritalin for AD/HD has somehow made my mind defective?

No, i don't think she said that. What she did say was that the 'defect' you had prior to taking the drugs would not be cured by the drugs, just managed ("chemically"). This might be satisfactory as an emergency, stop-gap measure if someone's behavioural problems were detrimental to the extreme, but for long-term, continuous dosing, perhaps not such a great idea.

The evidence points to the exact opposite. Prior to diagnosis and treatment at age 30, I was really having problems in nearly every area of my life. Post treatment, I have been steadily improving in every area to the point that today I would call myself extremely stable and capable.

How many people have problems up to that age (or thereabouts) which eventually settle and stabilise without any medication? Quite a lot i should imagine, seeing as that is around the time we become more grounded in ourselves as a result of the maturing process which reaches a significant plateau during that phase.
And half the battle of curing a problem is recognising it exists. I'm presuming you sought help yourself, so things were already changing before you even took your first pill.
Maybe it would have been a much harder, longer task to reach a state of equilibrium naturally, but if you had succeeded, it would surely be a far deeper, more solid stability than one achieved by artificial means?


Another example to demonstrate the point i'm making in this thread:

At seven years old, I went from an ideal existence (for a kid) living in a village in the countryside, where kids were just kids, to quite a hellish ordeal when my family moved to a big city...and one which has earned a reputation for being neurotic, snooty and two-faced, which unfortunately turned out to be correct. And the area we moved to epitomised the very worst traits of the place, as did the strict, presbyterian state school i attended (which was stuck in the Victorian age). The kids were mini replicas of their narrow, uptight parents (apart from a small minority who were ok), and some of the teachers were bordering on insane. I used to suffer a lot of misery being immersed in such an unpleasant environment every day and was also singled out and targeted by teachers and pupils alike for being 'different', something i had never experienced in any of the other places i lived. If you weren't like them, they made life very unpleasant. After years of this, i eventually succumbed to the pressure to conform, going against my true self in order to gain acceptance by wearing the 'right clothes' and saying the 'right things'. This worked, to an extent, and so i gained popularity and things went more smoothly for me. Apart from, however, a very unsettling feeling i started to experience in myself. It would just come from nowhere for no apparent reason. I couldn't put my finger on it, it was just a feeling of something not right at all, and was very perturbing. It felt as if something was badly at odds in myself, and i had to get to the bottom of it. Fortunately, perhaps due to having such a strong sense of identity, and maybe due also to having made such a conscious decision to conform, i managed to figure out what it was by myself (dropping the fake [point-winning] behaviour, the disturbance ceased completely)...before any know-all counsellors or psychiatrists got a hold of me. But not everybody is so lucky.

If you choose (or are brought up) to ignore your real views or feelings about something, instead overriding it with an outwardly acquired approach that isn't a true reflection of your personality, you are going to cause conflict at some level which will manifest eventually. If anyone had viewed the symptom...a distinct mental and emotional disturbance, i might have been diagnosed as 'mentally defective' (when it was because my mind WAS working properly that i was suffering) and prescribed medication which would have subdued or complicated matters in such a way that i would never have managed to figure out what the real problem was, and continued along the same path, not really being myself but being an outer and an inner that were in conflict, but conflict which i was able to tolerate due to a chemical 'solution'. The symptom isn't the problem. It is the visible sign there is a problem. Altering the visible sign doesn't cure the problem, it just finds a way to continue living with the problem. And no matter how well constructed, if a house is built on unsound foundations, you will eventually get structural damage like subsidence, or even collapse.

Now do you understand what i'm saying?

What evidence do you need to validate stability and mental clarity?

Perhaps the ability to discuss the matter without a knee-jerk dismissal of the subject and personal discrediting of the person who broaches it would be a start. ;)

[phatboy]

I have to start by saying that I dont believe in medication to cure lifes problems. I do not feel that people who do take medication are bad. My 6 year old is wide open. Non-stop till he goes to sleep. He is constantly doing things and never seems to get bored. Now in school, he talks too much, well he likes to sing while he does his work. Would I consider putting him on medication to 'calm' him down? No way. It's who he is.

When he doesnt touch his PS2 for 6 months but fills up 4 notebooks with drawings, doesnt hurt anything, and keeps up with school work, and football practice I cant complain about his talking.

Do I wish I could stay more focused at work? Yea, but Im on here too much to worry about that... :lol:


I understand what nursey is saying, I think, how can you really know who you are, if you are medicated all the time?

[Joeslogic]

Just be glad you did not have the unfortunate issue of growing up under Taliban rule. You would not have to worry about medication dulling your senses. But you would be conforming though that’s for sure. A lot worse that your Presbyterian school. Who knows though maybe they send the hard-line problem people to work in the opium fields?

[Nursey]

WTF!?!! Why should i be grateful for that, you crazy old goat? What does Afghanistan have to do with me? Who ever suggested Afghanistan was a good place to live? I'd have more chance of being brought up in Hawaii, North Korea, or Timbuktu. All 'foreignishy' type places too! :roll:

[Joeslogic]

Haha! I'm just saying with regards to strict forced rules of behavior such as for example the Presbyterian school you were referring to. Then again break outside the confines of religion and look at the religion of socialism such as North Korea. Strict ruled environment you do not have to worry about being medicated into a stupor to accept the societal norms of which you disagree. They just let it be known that if you are a bad apple they will pluck you from the tree and insert you right into a labor camp.

I understand the point you are making and to an extent agree. Thing is its all about moderation. There is a place for medication prescribed responsibly.

I'm just looking at other underlining issues that I perceive with your personality and drawing parallel observations.

[Joeslogic]

Besides did you ever consider that if you had been prescribed some medication for whatever underlining issue you were theoretically going through? Actually may have had the effect of helping you to see that what you felt uncomfortable with was as you assumed?

[ucicare]

Oh ok, well it would have been helpful if you could have said that in the first place instead of just trying to portray me as stupid or insane.

Fugly ettiquette demands that you insult first, and reason later. I was just trying to fit in.


I thought it was quite an interesting discussion to initiate, personally.

I agree, now that you clarify.

What she did say was that the 'defect' you had prior to taking the drugs would not be cured by the drugs, just managed ("chemically").

You are absolutely correct.There is no cure for AD/HD. Symptom control is the focus of both behavior/educational therapy and medication. "Chemical management" is a fairly accurate term.


This might be satisfactory as an emergency, stop-gap measure if someone's behavioural problems were detrimental to the extreme, but for long-term, continuous dosing, perhaps not such a great idea.

You are right and wrong. Antidepressants were never designed for long term use. They are a stop gap measure to reverse the severe and dangerous symptoms associated with depression. The idea is to stabilize the person with medication and then help them make the cognitive and behavioral changes necessary to no longer need the medicine.

Antipsychotics fail into the same category, except sometimes the person cannot stabilize, and the only choice left for the safety of the client and the world is long term medication, or "chemical management."

A person with AD/HD is not a candidate for a "stop gap" measure. If they could just simply "get a grip" on their behaviors, they do not have AD/HD.
By definition ADHD is a disorder characterized by the absoulte inablity of the person to control negative behaviors desite their very best efforts. The stimulant medication does not cure their problem, but it does provide them with the focus they need for them take control of their impulses and behaviors.


Maybe it would have been a much harder, longer task to reach a state of equilibrium naturally, but if you had succeeded, it would surely be a far deeper, more solid stability than one achieved by artificial means?

I do not think that I would have ever achieved symptom control without the help of medication. I had excactly the same symptoms for 30 years. If I stop taking my medication, the symptoms return to the exact level in about four hours.

One thing I do appreciate about what you say - I agree that forcing yourself to be something that you are not is stressful. The most stressful thing on earth, however, is wanting desperately to be somebody different than who you are, and lacking the control to change your own behaviors.


The symptom isn't the problem. It is the visible sign there is a problem. Altering the visible sign doesn't cure the problem, it just finds a way to continue living with the problem.

That is very true, almost. With ADHD, the symptoms do become "problems" although they are not THE problem. Since there is no know way to cure "the problem" the only option left at this time is to treat the symptoms.

At this point "finding a way to continue living with the problem" is exactly what I am doing. If you find the cure, let me know. We will both be rich tomorrrow.

[Nursey]

I'm just saying with regards to strict forced rules of behavior such as for example the Presbyterian school you were referring to.
Then again break outside the confines of religion and look at the religion of socialism such as North Korea. Strict ruled environment you do not have to worry about being medicated into a stupor to accept the societal norms of which you disagree. They just let it be known that if you are a bad apple they will pluck you from the tree and insert you right into a labor camp.

So what if there are worse places? They boil some people alive up to their waist in oil and send the remains to their relatives in Uzbekistan (http://www.bhhrg.org/Print.asp?ReportID=243&CountryID=23) (one of Washington's new 'friends').That doesn't make what i experienced as a child any less unpleasant. I think you most likely took exception to the 'presbyterian' bit. The reason why i even mentioned that was because, unlike the other state schools i or my siblings attended which were also presbyterian (by default), that particular school and all the dusty old relics who taught there took the religious thing to the extreme - while being the biggest hypocrites full of bitterness towards the human race. But you probably have an image of me back then as some backwards, 'unwashed heathen' (despite my being descended from the very first christians) who had never been brought up to properly behave, being taken under their righteous, christian wing. ;)

I understand the point you are making and to an extent agree. Thing is its all about moderation. There is a place for medication prescribed responsibly.

Maybe as a last resort when everything else fails.

I'm just looking at other underlining issues that I perceive with your personality and drawing parallel observations.

A bit like when you 'look at underlining issues' that you 'perceive' about the democrats who you believe are hoping for some 'carnage' in America to help win them the election (and will work with terrorists to achieve that end)? Or when you 'looked at other underlining issues' you 'perceived' about my personality which fully convinced you i'd had an abortion at some time...and enjoyed it! I have to admit, you always hit the nail on the head.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/nursey/thumb.gif

[Nursey]

If you find the cure, let me know.

Have you tried traditional Chinese medicine? It cures an awful lot of things.

[Nursey]

Besides did you ever consider that if you had been prescribed some medication for whatever underlining issue you were theoretically going through? Actually may have had the effect of helping you to see that what you felt uncomfortable with was as you assumed?

"If it aint broke don't fix it". Conisdering there was nothing wrong with me, i don't see how distorting the picture with chemicals could have helped?

[chester grape]

Drugs are fun, kids. :D :D :D

[Nursey]

Drugs are fun, kids. :D :D :D

Well, they should be.

[chester grape]

http://www.univacgroup.com/bong.gif

[ucicare]

Have you tried traditional Chinese medicine? It cures an awful lot of things.



Obviously they haven't found the answer for rotten teeth and birth control.http://jitaedo.chat.ru/chinaman.jpg

[chester grape]

Have you tried traditional Chinese medicine? It cures an awful lot of things.



Obviously they haven't found the answer for rotten teeth and birth control.http://jitaedo.chat.ru/chinaman.jpg

That bloke's 130. His teeth are in great nick for his age.

[Nursey]

http://www.univacgroup.com/bong.gif

I may be a hypocrite but there's no need to gloat.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/nursey/roll.gif

[chester grape]

http://www.univacgroup.com/bong.gif

I may be a hypocrite but there's no need to gloat.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/nursey/roll.gif

I just knew that pic was of you. :D