Consciousness

[smurfslappa]

I'd like to hear what some people have to say about it. Is it the brain, or the electric pulses riding along the brain and nervous system? Does "junk DNA" have a role in all this? Discuss.

[ucicare]

I'd like to hear what some people have to say about it. Is it the brain, or the electric pulses riding along the brain and nervous system? Does "junk DNA" have a role in all this? Discuss.

All I know is that when you are unconscious, you seldom think of questions like this.

[diogenes]

How do you even know that consciousness exists?

[DrBungle]

Prove that it doesn't.

[diogenes]

Prove that it does. You can't prove either way whether or not consciousness exists. This is not the first time I've had this conversation, and it won't be the last.

[Ferine]

Prove that it does. You can't prove either way whether or not consciousness exists. This is not the first time I've had this conversation, and it won't be the last.
You lead an exciting life. You are one wild & crazy guy!

[diogenes]

I'm a philosophy major. What do you want me to do, hang out in frat houses and double fist 211. Oh, wait. Nevermind.

[ucicare]

I'm a philosophy major. What do you want me to do, hang out in frat houses and double fist 211. Oh, wait. Nevermind.

Seriously Dio, I applaud getting an education, but I have never understood how you earn a living with a degree in Philosophy. Is there a market? Do you have to go on and get a Masters or PhD?

Barry

[diogenes]

At least a masters to teach. I plan on being a professor. As a fall back I'm also picking up an Associates in Business Management, and probably also pick up a bachelors in Business Administration. At least that way I can work in Human Resources if I can't find a professorship. I have job offers at the college I'm attending right now though, so I'm not to worried about it. The only thing I have to worry about is if there are major budget cuts for schools. If they can't afford the staff, they're not going to be able to hire me. But that's a risk I'm willing to take. I don't need much to be happy. Why do you think I hang out in these forums so much? :wink:

[DangerousDan]

Think about it like this alot of times before someone has a siezure they hear a characteristic sound, smell a characteristic smell, see a certain thing. That is becasue a seizure is an abnormal firing of a certain pathway within the brain. When people are "concious" they are processing information neural pathwyas are being formed that are changed physically new connections are made. If they go into the long term memory they are fixed more permanently in a certain concrete pathway.

[diogenes]

One could reply to that statement that a brain is merely the interface between the consiousness and the physical world. A problem in the interface wouldn't necessarily prove the non-existence of an outside force controlling the being.

[smurfslappa]

Prove that it does. You can't prove either way whether or not consciousness exists. This is not the first time I've had this conversation, and it won't be the last.

You're an idiot diogenes. Consciousness exists and I don't care what kind of shit you can pull out of your ass it'll still sound stupid to me.

The consciousness exists. Now what do you think that it is? To me, it is all the electric impulses that travel our nervous systems and brain. When we die, it exists in the electromagnetic fields of Earth. So these wise old guys use pyramids cut to the right proportions with gold capstones during powerful electric storms to get out of this joint, but that's another thing.

Anyone else think it's the electric impulses, too? The ol' fire resting in the water according to ancient lore... St. Elmo's fire.

[diogenes]

I don't care what kind of shit you can pull out of your ass it'll still sound stupid to me.

The motto by which you live, no doubt.

To me, it is all the electric impulses that travel our nervous systems and brain.

No, those are electrical impulses, on an organized grid. Do you assume that the computer you are typing on therefore has the same consciousness? How about the power grid that delivers electrical pulses to power the devices in your home?

So these wise old guys use pyramids cut to the right proportions with gold capstones during powerful electric storms to get out of this joint...

Speaking of pulling stupid shit out of your ass.

[Joeslogic]

Prove that it does. You can't prove either way whether or not consciousness exists. This is not the first time I've had this conversation, and it won't be the last.

I think I understand what you are saying and I would hate to see that thread dissolve into an argument over the existence of conscience. Why not look at Smurfs question from the perspective of; assuming conscience exists, then what is conscience anyways?

It’s like the chicken –vs- egg argument. Of which I myself have brought up myself but only in the context of illustration not as an argument.

And I cannot resist saying that this discussion in itself is proof of consience. :D

[diogenes]

You could say that. I think consciousnes is an important thing to study. At the very least it gives a deeper understanding of the brain. Regardless of its existence. What turns a brain into a mind?

[Joeslogic]

Exactly my thoughts and I'm sure Smurfs also. It's so freaking amazing. Real intelligence with the ability to have moods, ideals, personnel preferences. From the simplest explanation I suppose a Bundle of nerves with electrical impulses by way of chemical reaction. Never mind that it can calculate an equation what makes it desire to do so?

Could you say conscience is curiosity? My explanation involves regular animals such as cows compared to curious animals such as humans.

And what of the overly curious persons with misdirected curiosity? Do they turn fuzzy blue and live in cute little villages amongst themselves?

[diogenes]

From the simplest explanation I suppose a Bundle of nerves with electrical impulses by way of chemical reaction.

That's the position David Hume takes in his book "An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding". Very valid argument that human consciousness is composed entirely of instinct and experience.

My explanation involves regular animals such as cows compared to curious animals such as humans.

Do you draw a black and white line, or is there a sliding scale or spectrum of curiosity from which you make your distinctions.

And what of the overly curious persons with misdirected curiosity? Do they turn fuzzy blue and live in cute little villages amongst themselves?

They move to Texas so they can post about guns and the weather.

[Joeslogic]

Do you draw a black and white line, or is there a sliding scale or spectrum of curiosity from which you make your distinctions.


Sliding scale and I am not certain about this. Its really up for debate from my own perspective.

I mean from the curiosity perspective a cow in my theory if its curiosity allowed it would not be content with grazing in the field, coming into the barn to graze on hay when its cold. But would desire to explore the boundaries of its pen, experiment with the electric fence using tree branches or whatever it may have at its disposal. Eventually figuring out it can short the electrical circuit out. blah blah blah you get the idea but its simply not curious about it. It is content to exist and has a lack of curiosity.

On the other hand some people speak of instinct. I would think that it may be easier to question the existence of instinct than conscience. For example the Cow takes measures to protect its calf. Could this be more a measure of compassion then instinct?

Is conscience not curiosity but instead compassion? Is curiosity really the proverbial apple eaten by Eve then Adam in the Garden of Eden? Where it not for knowledge would we not be content with our conscience i.e. compassion and simply existing in harmony? A simple life in the Garden of Eden

[smurfslappa]

Yeah I guess that'd be nice...
No, those are electrical impulses, on an organized grid. Do you assume that the computer you are typing on therefore has the same consciousness? How about the power grid that delivers electrical pulses to power the devices in your home?

No, because they are not alive. Also, they are not nearly as complex as a human body. We got all those awesome complex amino acids and proteins and DNA. What's awesome is that DNA is a double helix, and we've witnessed double-helix galaxies all up in space. The same electrical forces driving this galaxy also pull our DNA into the shape that it is.

It also explains why these old guys were always fucking around with electricity to talk to their Gods, like with the Ark of the Covenant, the Mercy seat, the burning bush that didn't actually burn, the Pyr-mids. Come on, this is an important force here and I'm pretty sure the universal principle of all things that scientists are looking for will be found to be the electromagnetic force.

So we got brains that have all sorts of electrical impulses travelling around in them, and all sorts of ancient lore saying that the soul is the fire within, resting in the water. I find it easier to believe that that is where our memories are stored, instead of being etched onto our brain.

We are our memories, and where do you think those are stored and how, diogenes?

[diogenes]

The electrical impulses are not composed of DNA and Amino acids and "shit".

Stimulating specific neurons can trigger specific memories. How do you suppose that is if our memories are not stored in our brains?

[Dwaine Scum]

Yeah I guess that'd be nice...
No, those are electrical impulses, on an organized grid. Do you assume that the computer you are typing on therefore has the same consciousness? How about the power grid that delivers electrical pulses to power the devices in your home?

No, because they are not alive. Also, they are not nearly as complex as a human body. We got all those awesome complex amino acids and proteins and DNA. What's awesome is that DNA is a double helix, and we've witnessed double-helix galaxies all up in space. The same electrical forces driving this galaxy also pull our DNA into the shape that it is.

It also explains why these old guys were always fucking around with electricity to talk to their Gods, like with the Ark of the Covenant, the Mercy seat, the burning bush that didn't actually burn, the Pyr-mids. Come on, this is an important force here and I'm pretty sure the universal principle of all things that scientists are looking for will be found to be the electromagnetic force.

So we got brains that have all sorts of electrical impulses travelling around in them, and all sorts of ancient lore saying that the soul is the fire within, resting in the water. I find it easier to believe that that is where our memories are stored, instead of being etched onto our brain.

We are our memories, and where do you think those are stored and how, diogenes?
Seriously beaner, you need to stop huffing Krylon Gold Spraypaint... It's really starting to fuck your grip on reality...

[Joeslogic]

We are our memories

Or- Our perception of who we are is the perception of out memories when seeing from our own individual perspective.

The accuracy of this perception is dependent upon the accuracy and integrity of these memories.

John Wayne Grace’s memories may or may not be a distortion of reality. And what of the person that never knew him other than as nice clown guy that lived in the neighborhood. Is who John Wayne Grace is a reflection of that individuals memories?

Maybe we do not know who we are unless our memories are accurate.
[/list]

[diogenes]

Attempting to be objective about subjective reality is always a fun exercise. A subject viewing a subject attempting to explain it as an object.

[Joeslogic]

A Brain twister, hard to grasp but there.... or ... is it?

[diogenes]

That did come out rather XerxesX like, didn't it.

[Joeslogic]

Yours or mine I'm thinking both actually.

[Eos]

I mean from the curiosity perspective a cow in my theory if its curiosity allowed it would not be content with grazing in the field, coming into the barn to graze on hay when its cold. But would desire to explore the boundaries of its pen, experiment with the electric fence using tree branches or whatever it may have at its disposal. Eventually figuring out it can short the electrical circuit out. blah blah blah you get the idea but its simply not curious about it. It is content to exist and has a lack of curiosity.

You're comparing curiosity to intelligence here, I believe. Sure cows are curious! They're just not the most intelligent creatures on earth. Ever see a cow follow a rabbit around the field looking at it? Chances are, no matter how long it follows the rabbit, it'll never come to the conclusion that if it impales the bunny on a stick and props it up against the electric fence, that the fence will short out. Then, I suppose, you would have to ask yourself WHY the cow doesn't really want out of the pasture. Probably because it doesn't need to be out. Try putting a wild buffalo in an electric fence and see what happens.


On the other hand some people speak of instinct. I would think that it may be easier to question the existence of instinct than conscience. For example the Cow takes measures to protect its calf. Could this be more a measure of compassion then instinct?

Is conscience not curiosity but instead compassion? Is curiosity really the proverbial apple eaten by Eve then Adam in the Garden of Eden? Where it not for knowledge would we not be content with our conscience i.e. compassion and simply existing in harmony? A simple life in the Garden of Eden[/quote]

Garden of Eden? What's that? See where I'm going with this? ;) Oh.. Hi everybody!

[Joeslogic]

If you are unaware of what the Garden of Eden is then I suggest you try educating yourself. If on the other hand you are implying that Garden of Eden = Biblical historical representation = invalidated statement by way of association. Then go fuck yourself.

See where I'm going with this. :wink:

[Eos]

No statement is invalid. You made it, it's valid. Whether or not it can be ripped to shreds to suggest a point is a different matter entirely. Notice I said 'suggest' a point and not 'prove' a point. Nothing will ever be proven in this debate. Just like Gardens of Eden, conciousness itself and what it actually is is a matter of opinion or perspective.

You got so hung up on the idea of me fucking myself that you completely ignored the fact that you were comparing apples and oranges. Now, my opinion is that you ignored my original statements because you didn't know how to respond and that childish outburst was a knee-jerk reaction from you... or you're a no common sense having smacktard.

Since I'm nice like that I'll dispense with some advice. If you just didn't know how to respond.. dude, it's the INTERNET. Pretend you went to bed or something and just think about it for a minute. Nobody will know the difference. If it was just a knee-jerk 'OMG THIS ASSHOLE JUST ATTACKED ME!' kinda thing, well there are medications out there to help you... because that was nowhere near an attack. If you're a no common sense having smacktard then you should probably try to learn whistle blowing from your anal cavity.. it'll be much more useful in the long run for any sorts of career paths you may want to pursue.

I bet you're cute when you're mad though. Probably get all red faced and squeal a lot, huh?

[Nursey]

Joe is an ex prison guard. Need i say any more? Here's my artistic representation of his mindset:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/nursey/quantumdualistic.gif

That's Joe on the right.

[Eos]

Oh. Well that clears things up. Thanks!

[Nursey]

No problem. I just thought i'd save someone else the frustration that occurs shortly before it dawns on you that the person you are arguing with isn't in the least bit interested in any facts that disprove their case.

[Eos]

Well, I do appreciate it! I wasn't at the frustrated stage yet, though. It was more of an incredulous "you've got to be kidding me, right?" kinda thing. It was still amusing. That particular post I quoted was the only reason I replied to the thread at all. There were other 'observations' that were just as absurd that I was saving for later, but I guess I won't bother now. :(

In any case, thanks again!

[Nursey]

Well, I do appreciate it! I wasn't at the frustrated stage yet, though. It was more of an incredulous "you've got to be kidding me, right?" kinda thing.
Yup. That's how it starts.


There were other 'observations' that were just as absurd that I was saving for later, but I guess I won't bother now. :(


Don't be put off completely (afterall this forum is badly needing any action it can get at the moment), but just be aware of what exactly you are dealing with. ;)

[Eos]

:!: I'm all for action! I just didn't want to cheapen the subject matter. This started off as a really good topic which is why I was so incredibly well disciplined in my first post. Yeah, I wanted to go tazmanian devil and just start shredding everything but I can be nice! Occasionally.

Debating with whatshisname would be like argueing with one of Damon Wayans characters on In Living Color.. you know the guy? "First of all, we must internalize the flatulation of the matter by transmitting the effervescense of the Indonesian proximity in order to further segregate the crux of my venereal infection. Now, if I may retain my liquids here for one moment, I'd like to continue the redundance of my quote-unquote intestinal tract. See, to preclude on the issue of world domination would only circumvent.. excuse me, circumsise the revelation of the aphrodesiatic symptoms which now perpetrates the jheri curl's activation." Damn.. that's even funnier now than when I first thought of it.

Seriously though, I didn't want this to turn into a "You're ugly!" "Nooo...YOU'RE UGLY!" type thing, which is where it was headed. LOL I'll save it for a thread that doesn't interest me nearly as much. :twisted:

[Joeslogic]

And hey why just lay their licking your wounds when you have a Nurse to lick them for you? And while that’s taking place if you feel something poking you well the answer to that riddle is..... yes Nursey is happy to see you.

Sorry Nursey I could not resist. Honestly though Eos maybe I misunderstood where you were coming or going. The whole thread I found about a week or so ago to be very interesting. While actively speculating on the possibilities of consciousness I entertained the idea of a correlation between curiosity and consciousness then did an about face on that idea and suggested that compassion may be more accurately associated with consciousness. In example a higher level of compassion would mean a higher level of consciousness or for instance a “guilty conscious” would be due to a feeling of compassion for any perceived victim of a wrong done. Your comment struck me as facetious or less than sincere maybe cynical who knows because it did not make much sense to me. Please do accept my apologies Eos for being less than accommodating to such a minor annoyance. I am guilty of having too much fun gloating over the death of a maggot. But if you would like to explain I would love to hear exactly where you were going with your observation of my post.

[Nursey]

:!: I'm all for action! I just didn't want to cheapen the subject matter. This started off as a really good topic which is why I was so incredibly well disciplined in my first post. Yeah, I wanted to go tazmanian devil and just start shredding everything but I can be nice! Occasionally.

Debating with whatshisname would be like argueing with one of Damon Wayans characters on In Living Color.. you know the guy? "First of all, we must internalize the flatulation of the matter by transmitting the effervescense of the Indonesian proximity in order to further segregate the crux of my venereal infection. Now, if I may retain my liquids here for one moment, I'd like to continue the redundance of my quote-unquote intestinal tract. See, to preclude on the issue of world domination would only circumvent.. excuse me, circumsise the revelation of the aphrodesiatic symptoms which now perpetrates the jheri curl's activation." Damn.. that's even funnier now than when I first thought of it.

Seriously though, I didn't want this to turn into a "You're ugly!" "Nooo...YOU'RE UGLY!" type thing, which is where it was headed. LOL I'll save it for a thread that doesn't interest me nearly as much. :twisted:

Good god! Have Diogenes and XerxesX been procreating while i was away!?

[Nursey]

Actually, on second reading that wasn't nearly convoluted and obscure enough to be XerxesX's offspring.

[Eos]

I'm probably older than both of them.