15 year olds with parents that neglect to whip their ass [Archive]

Joeslogic

03-22-2006, 03:10 AM

I never herd the 911 audio do not want to I feel sorry enough for the old man already. He goes off his property and is subject to all sorts of rude behavior with no real recourse. It is a cruel world out there so live with it the days of respect for your elders a thing of the past. Honestly, truly it is no different at his home. He said the kid was screwing with him and inciting the same from the other kids in the neighborhood. I believe him it simply fits the M.O. for that scenario. So what truly was his recourse? What could he possibly do? At 60+ years old he probably spent a lifetime being respectful of others property and others rights. He has but one place that is his own his refuge from the world, his oasis that he can take some pleasure in maintaining his lawn and what not. Something he is proud of and what I ask is his recourse against some snot nose punk kid and apparently his shithead parents? There is none that you can reasonably tell me, nothing he could have done except what he did. I�m proud of the old fart he stood up for his rights.

diogenes

03-22-2006, 03:13 AM

And he ended someones life in the process. Over grass.

Joeslogic

03-22-2006, 03:21 AM

So what was his other recourse?

And also do you believe he had a right to enjoy his own property without harassment?

diogenes

03-22-2006, 03:26 AM

It doesn't matter. He killed a kid over grass. Grass doesn't equal a human life. Clearly the guy flipped, and over-reacted, but we're talking human beings vs. grass. That doesn't pass cruel or unusual punishment. It's barbaric.

Joeslogic

03-22-2006, 03:57 AM

Honestly Dio I would never argue over human life (scumbag or not) vs. grass. At the least having read the article you must admit you are overly simplifying things.

So from that respect your non-answer on the point that �it doesn�t matter because� statement is invalid.

Consider this, I go to the projects I act rude stare people down walk around the place as if my hard earned money paid for the place without any help from the indigents living there (hold on that�s true actually come to think of it) find out who the project pimp daddy is and generally screw with him. I call him names wait till he goes somewhere in his car and take his parking place, flick cigarette ashes into his window. Tell him to "fuck off" if he says anything about it. So the frustrated pimp shoots me.

Four questions. (really two actually)

What is the general public opinion of me getting killed screwing with the project pimp daddy? And why?

Would it make national headlines? And why?

diogenes

03-22-2006, 05:19 AM

#1. You asked if justice was served. Public opinion and justice are by no means the same thing. Don't confuse them, you're smarter than that. So I couldn't care less what the public opinion would be. Justice would be served when the pimp went to jail for shooting you, which he had no right to do in the first place.

#2. What difference does it make if it would make the National Headlines?

This man killed a KID.

Let me quote the article for you Joe.

Another neighbor described the victim as "a good kid.

The only person saying the kid deserved it is the man who shot him. And the man planned to shoot him. Let me again quote the article.

The two argued again Sunday, police said, and when Mugrage returned, Martin was waiting outside and shot him twice.

Your jumping to conclusions. The article says this kid was walking across a mans lawn. How can you possibly justify pre-meditated murder with that premise?

Ferine

03-22-2006, 05:28 AM

Did he have a "Trespassers will be shot" sign posted prominently on his lawn?

phatboy

03-22-2006, 07:15 AM

Im sorry, there are a lot of punk ass 15 year olds that could use a good ass whoopin. I see them all the time, disrespecting their parents, talking back, arguing. That kid was a punk. The fact that there was numerous calls to the authorities says it all. And Dio, the kid came back, you quote says so. He was shot when he returned. Okay, where did he go? Did he come back with a bat or something?

Did the old man overreact? Yes.

Of course the neighbors are going to say he was a good kid. "Well he was a real ignorant little shit and I am just glad he didnt live near me"

Plus the old guy is the same old guy in almost every neighborhood in America. The one old guy that doesnt want anyone in his yard, you hit a baseball in his yard you aint getting it back. That old guy.

Here is what happened.

"Hey kid, get out of my yard, you are killing the flowers and killing the grass"

"Fuck you old man, why dont you make me"

"Im calling the cops"

"Oh that worked real good for you last time"

"Your parents need to whip your ass and teach you some fucking manners"

"Why dont you try it old man"

"Im going inside to call the cops"

"Oh okay, Im soo scared"

Kid walks off, smokes some weed, laughs about old man and says to friend, "Hey lets go fuck with that old man, maybe he will get worked up enough to have a heart attack. Huh huh uhhuuh "

Kid walks through bushes into old mans yard.

"Hey old man, I pissed on your petunias....ha ha ha"

"Fuck you punk ass bitch....."

BAM

"I told you to stay off my fucking grass"

BAM

"Your moms smells like a wrecked shrimp boat"

BAM

"Why arent you laughing now, dickhead?

BAM

"I need some herbal tea."

And I think people get killed over 'grass' all the time. Maybe a different kind of grass.

Totalrecall1982

03-22-2006, 10:18 AM

Can you repost the link, I don't know what your talking about

smurfslappa

03-22-2006, 10:52 AM

Bitch it's at the top of the page, and it still works too ho so you're just dumb.

smiles

03-22-2006, 12:34 PM

Joeslogic

03-22-2006, 12:48 PM

I see you see it the way I do Phat I could not have explained the typical scenario better.

The vote was one thing the question was to hopefully enlighten a perspective from a different point of view. What are broken down here are family and moral values. The answer is that the man had no other feasible recourse. Either goes through his final years in life in a country whose freedoms and rights he helped defend at risk of his own life, as a victim. Or defend himself the only way he could after other options were exhausted.

In this scenario society will generally look at the kid as the victim. The old man as a cantankerous old fart with way to much of a chip on his shoulder.

In the "projects scenario" I would be looked at as, an asshole who had no business being where I was and looking for trouble. Finally getting what I deserved. The "Pimp Daddy" would be looked at as, simply a person who �rightfully� choose an "alternative" lifestyle and basically a victim who should be dealt with a great deal of leniency.

The point is that society has been brainwashed to be accommodating to one group while dealing with the other from a perspective of extreme prejudice.

As for me, I have no children to take care of. I have wife that is fully taken care of in the event of my demise, and would make it if I spent the rest of my life in jail. From sixty years old plus of course especially true after say seventy-five. Any snot nosed punk ass kids would be well advised to treat this old man with respect. Of course that�s still a long ways away but it is something to ponder.

Joeslogic

03-22-2006, 12:51 PM

Total the link worked for me the page may have been down when you tried it.

http://www.nbc4.com/news/8152056/detail.html

I bet even Nursey agrees with me on this one.

phatboy

03-22-2006, 12:56 PM

The negligent parent is too blame. Of course they will blame their bad parenting on 'the woes of having to work'. The simple fact is that they spend all their time worrying about their wants and needs that they neglect the kid. Too many parents today completely over look the fact that they are responsible for their childrens growth, especially emotionally.

Kids dont care. All the liberals out west will say it is TV and video games that decenitize (Fuck I cant spell) the kids, but the fact is the parents dont care what the kids are doing as long as it isnt bothering them.

I see it all to often.

I work 9-10 hours a day. I am on my companies emergency response team, I am in school, I coach my sons t-ball team and I still find time to help my kids with their homework, play in the yard and go camping with them.

I can rest when Im dead.

My kids say ma'am and sir, they dont pitch fits when they get their way, and if they only talk back occasionally. Everyone has a bad day every now and then. That kid caught that old man on a bad day.

phatboy

03-22-2006, 12:59 PM

My kids say ma'am and sir, they dont pitch fits when they get their way, and if they only talk back occasionally.

Sorry that should say, they dont pitch fits when the DONT get their way.

smiles

03-22-2006, 01:10 PM

heh you guys are jokers.... right? you're writing some sort of satirical piece here.... right? sure you can;t believe that the only "feasible recourse" to an undisciplined youth is to shoot him twice with a shotgun? and that's even assuming that your interpretation of what transpired is correct even though there is no evidence to support this......

sure you can't believe that you can compare this situation to that of being the agitator of a criminal and overall social deviant.... people would say you were an idiot if the pimp shot you.... but that's because he's a pimp, he beats women into selling their bodies as his income and in all likely hood is involved in a wide variety of illegal and essentially amoral activities..... that's like comparing taunting a strange ownerless pitbull with making faces at the neighbors golden retriever..... i honestly believe that the places you guys live exist only in your minds.....

YES there is a problem with discipline and respect in North America...... YES some people are neglectful parents that are incapable of raising stable offspring for whatever reason.... YES i do wish parents would be more strict but to shoot the kid twice with a shotgun COME THE FUCK ON

phatboy

03-22-2006, 01:18 PM

I didnt say the old man was right by shooting the kid. And yes I would like to hear all of the evidence.

All that old man has to say is this, "He threatened me and I feared for my life"

End of story. The boy was on his property, Trespassing, he was asked to leave and refused to do so by coming back. If he caused any damage then it is criminal trespassing. Im not saying the old man had a right to shoot him, fuck it just move, but the fact that he made complaints on several occasions show that it wasnt a one time incident.

Of course he, the old man, could have been harassing the kid.

Joeslogic

03-22-2006, 01:34 PM

Smiles wrote:
YES there is a problem with discipline and respect in North America...... YES some people are neglectful parents that are incapable of raising stable offspring for whatever reason.... YES i do wish parents would be more strict

So we do have some common ground here. Good and I think most would agree.

You misunderstood my analogy though. Or you picked the weakest most arguable point and made a fairly good case of arguing it as if it were the whole point.

I hear there was other recourse available but I'm not hearing what it is.

My point in the comparison is that society would look sympathetically at the pimp. And at the same time give no benefit of leniency to the "crazy old man." Dogs are animals people are not. And people be they pimp or old man should be held to the same standard. Not looked at from the perspective of I should have known better to screw with the pimp. And �Hey the kid was just being a kid�. You basically make my point as to society�s fault of perception.

I'm sorry we do not totally eye to eye on this. Your points are good ones and valid when broken down point by point but not valid when you look at the total picture. And you�re dead on right in my quote from yourself. The problem is society and breakdown of family values.
[/quote]

smiles

03-22-2006, 02:15 PM

I hear there was other recourse available but I'm not hearing what it is.

so let's assume for a moment the scenario you have presented where the kid has been tirelessly harassing the old man is a factual one... he could:
1) talk to his parents (no good? ok then...)
2) get other people in the neighborhood to talk to the parents (they're inbred? ok then...)
3) talk to the police and get them to talk to the parents.... if the parents havent listened to him or other neighbors they are irrational and likely the household is an unstable one

i cannot imagine a scenario where someone would so persistently harass someone else without the authorities recognizing the harassment for what it was..... without at least the other neighbors recognizing it for what it was.... clearly they didn't as one of them had described the kid as a "good kid" so clearly there is something amiss in your interpretation........ trying to crucify this kid because of americas larger problems is just ludicrous

My point in the comparison is that society would look sympathetically at the pimp. And at the same time give no benefit of leniency to the "crazy old man." And people be they pimp or old man should be held to the same standard.

this is where our opinions truly differ...... you seem to believe that society will look at the pimp with sympathy? how so? you, as a grown man being a fully functioning member of society, going out of your way to taunt a person whom you recognize as a social deviant makes you an idiot and in all likelihood a nut...... agreed? and even though SOCIETY will say well yeah you had it coming...... because you were looking for trouble and you were lookign for it where you KNEW you could find it and where you KNEW it would be big trouble

now a teenager... bothers his eccentric neighbor because he, like most other teenagers is an idiot, he doesn't damage anything, he doesn't physically touch the man, all he uses are his words

how can you honestly compare the two situations? how can they be held to the same standard?

placing your anger at disobedient youths on this one case is unhealthy joe...... the old fucker went too fucking far and you are too..... you take all these extreme stances for which you don't consider further implications.... imagine what would happen IF that old man was acquitted.... if society deemed what he did as right? can you imagine the implications?

Joeslogic

03-22-2006, 02:39 PM

Truly differ? Not to sure about that.

I think society should look at me as a nut case for screwing with the pimp. But I also think society should levy a heavy penalty onto the pimp. Real life imprisonment would be a start. He never really contributed anything to society anyways and imprisonment is just a cheaper way of doing what we were doing for him anyways which is taking care of his sorry ass.

I can say that about the pimp because he is a fictitious character I made him up.

Admittedly I do not know the specifics about the "old man" or the "kid" I do not know aht there demeanor was what their attitude was. There you have a somewhat valid point.

However

From what I did read I would say Phats scenario was likely very close to exactly what happened. To assume otherwise with what if scenarios like the kid was a real sweetheart Oliver Twist type victim of society really out helping his kid sister sell girl scout cookies. Is simply not realistic.

I think from what I do know a five year mandatory sentence with no time off for good behavior would be about right for the old man.

And there was no other recourse. Moving is not a recourse that�s just victimizing yourself further. He had a right to live right where he did in peace on his own property. There is nothing the authorities could do either.

If someone has more information and possibly a link to the audio I'd be glad to consider it further weather I'm wrong on this.

smurfslappa

03-22-2006, 02:43 PM

I hope that old man gets aquitted. I got all sorts of little kids running around my yard, skipping and playing and all sorts of shit that gets my blood pressure up.

phatboy

03-22-2006, 02:45 PM

According to police, Martin and Mugrage had a history of arguments about Martin's yard.

I am guessing that Martin - the old man - had called in several complaints to the police.

Neighbors said Martin lived alone quietly, often sitting in front of his one-story home with its neat lawn, well-trimmed shrubbery and flagpole with U.S. and Navy flags flying.

Retired Navy, probably Vietnam war, maybe Korea, Maybe both.

Authorities said Martin has no prior criminal record, but he does have a history of complaints about neighbors allegedly damaging his property. Other teens from the neighborhood said Martin was obsessive about his lawn.

"I've been harassed by him and his parents for five years. Today just blew it up."

Apparently the kids parents need an ass whoopin too.

Obsessive about his yard, yea, he took pride in keeping his yard nice, probably the only thing he has left and the neighbors wouldnt respect it.

Thats his defense in a nutshel. OCD, Temporary Insanity. All the documented complaints back it up. The fact that he argued with the parents also backs it up. He probably went to them and said 'hey do you mind telling your kid to keep off my lawn, I spend a lot of time keeping it up and it would really help out if he would quit trampling my daisies."

Not saying the old man should have done it, but I understand why he did it.

Joeslogic

03-22-2006, 02:53 PM

Although I feel like you gotta do something. And I feel like the old man feels that way also he owned up to it and took responsibility right away.

Smurf wrote: I hope that old man gets aquitted. I got all sorts of little kids running around my yard, skipping and playing and all sorts of shit that gets my blood pressure up.

And to be quite honest it would not bother me if they aquitted him.

How about house arrest where he is only allowed to goto the barber shop, store, hospital, and of course nursery or garden supply store from time to time. And permission to sit on his front porch with a shotgun in his lap. :P

phatboy

03-22-2006, 03:03 PM

:o Hey kid get off my lawn

8) What are you going to do, shoot me?

:twisted: Why yes, yes I am

:shock: damn you old man.....

phatboy

03-22-2006, 03:09 PM

Joanne Ritchie, 46, said Mugrage was known as "a good kid," but she always also considered Martin to be friendly

It also said he was killed by a single gunshot wound to the chest.

A 4/10 doesnt have a great big shell, like a 12 guage, so he must have been pretty close to do enough damage. If Im not mistaken they dont make 'slugs' for a 4.10. Just bird shot and rat shot. I could be wrong, Im not a gun enthusiast.

Joeslogic

03-22-2006, 06:12 PM

Yeah they do make a 410 slug that could have killed him in one shot. If he was hit with shot then it must have been at close range. and unless it was a close range head, neck, or heart. I bet he lived long enough to consider the deadly error in his judgement. Kind of makes me feel sorry for the kid. But more sorry for the old man.

chester grape

03-22-2006, 07:16 PM

"No recourse"?

Even if everything you wrote is true,Joe, how about firing a warning shot into the air? That would have scared the little fucker off, I'm betting, and resulted in probably no more than a warning for "Martin".

How about clubbing him once with a baseball bat? Causes injury, but unlikely to be fatal.

Your thinking on this is obsessively flawed. And smurf, in case you hadn't guessed, is only joking.

smurfslappa

03-22-2006, 07:43 PM

Not really. I've been aching to blow someone away with my new gun. :evil: Also fuck the kid. It's one person in a sea of billions, and everyone thinks in a really fucked up way. Who's responsible for robbing us of our logic? Why, the same people who want the world to end!

smiles

03-22-2006, 07:46 PM

i really don't see how you can make the calims you make joe..... sure we all feel a level of sympathy towards the old man, he is a vet, but for you to suggest that the this 66 year old MAN had no other way to deal with this situation than to shoot this BOY twice with a shotgun..... there is no discussion after that point because to me that is an irrational statement

smurfslappa

03-22-2006, 07:51 PM

Yep. Joe is the antismart.

phatboy

03-22-2006, 08:03 PM

Foxnews said it was a single shot. I dont know the distance, but the boy was able to get back to his yard before collapsing.

I think the kid got a real quick reality check. Im not saying he deserved to die, but fuck it he should have kept his stupid ass out of the old mans yard.

Live and let live is one thing, fuck with my grass, you got to die.

smurfslappa

03-22-2006, 08:23 PM

That's awesome. He really did have enough time to think about where he went wrong.

diogenes

03-22-2006, 09:40 PM

It doesn't sound like the old man had a fence. Second, he planned on shooting the kid. He waited for the kid to come back. That's 1st Degree murder. Pre-meditated. He had time to think about what he was doing, and didn't stop himself. 5 years, you have to be kidding me.

smurfslappa

03-22-2006, 09:42 PM

Looks like that old man dodged a bullet! 5 years is awesome for something like that.

phatboy

03-22-2006, 09:50 PM

Too bad the kid couldnt dodge a bullet.

It doesnt matter about a fence. The property line is what matters. I know DIO is out there in liberal california, but a mans property is sacred, Plus at his age 66, being alone, going to jail probably isnt the worse thing for him.

Here in the south, I can shoot you on my property if I tell you to leave and you dont. Regardless of fences or signs, it is private property. I may get arrested and have to go jail. But I would get off, cause no jury in the south would convict a man of protecting his property.

smurfslappa

03-22-2006, 09:53 PM

That's right bitches. You thought I was kidding about those kids running around up front? I've been planting the seed that exact seed in their minds for years now. They never leave when I tell them to, but that's alright. That's exactly what I want. All I need to do is piss them off enough, and they'll come back to slash my tires, and that's when I'll be waiting... waiting...

phatboy

03-22-2006, 10:11 PM

Are you going to shoot them for slicing the tires on your hyundai?

chester grape

03-22-2006, 10:14 PM

Are you going to shoot them for slicing the tires on your hyundai?

The tiny metal shards they left in the rubber would actually increase the value of your shitbox, smurf.

diogenes

03-22-2006, 10:19 PM

Vigilantism can't be justified in the case of his FRONT yard. If you live in a neighborhood, which this man did, kids will get on your lawn. That's part of the risk you accept when you live in a neighborhood. At no point have I said this kid was right. I know for a fact if I would have pulled something like that my dad would have found out and beat the shit out of me, but shooting a kid for being on your lawn. There is no way you can justify that. The fact that the man waited for the kid to come back makes it pre-meditated murder. I don't care how much you love your Petunia plants, you can't justify murder over a property line. This man was not protecting himself, this was a crime of vengeance. Society has no place for vigilantism. Especially when it involves pre-meditated MURDER.

Joeslogic

03-22-2006, 10:22 PM

Warning shot would have never worked would only have got the old man in trouble. The punk would have been back the next day. Then there is the idea of vandalism whenever the old man turned his back.

He was already screwed; I would venture to guess that he planned a warning shot to scare the dead little shit. Then he thought about how he was just going to loose at that also get in trouble with the authorities and not fix the problem then the kid probably said something that pushed him over the edge.

He has an awesome case for an insanity plea. I generally hate defense lawyers but would like to be his. I wonder what prescriptions he is taking.

phatboy

03-22-2006, 10:26 PM

"What are you going to do with that gun, ooooh Im so scared"

Boom.

Joeslogic

03-22-2006, 10:34 PM

Your right killing him was a little to much. What he should have done is hit him with a tranquilizer gun drug him into the house and injected about 100cc of lysergic acid diethylamide into his juggler vein then locked him up in a small cell out in the woods somewhere and pumped the song �Puff the Magic Dragon� into his ears at 150 db for three days. Then untied him and released him at his house at 2am in the morning while dressed in an alien costume.

The kid would never be the same. Not dead but no longer a misfit either. Just a seriously retarded punk that swears to everyone he was abducted by aliens who previously abducted puff the magic dragon who by the way is a member of the alien space fleet.

Problem solved and done so in a humane manner.

smiles

03-22-2006, 10:47 PM

is it that you can;t conceive a middle ground joe or that you just refuse to acknowledge its presence?

phatboy

03-22-2006, 10:48 PM

What is the middle ground?

smurfslappa

03-22-2006, 10:53 PM

Blasting the kid in the legs, so it's not attempted murder.

phatboy

03-22-2006, 10:56 PM

Yea, but then you lose everything you have in the civil case.

diogenes

03-22-2006, 10:58 PM

The kid would never be the same. Not dead but no longer a misfit either. Just a seriously retarded punk that swears to everyone he was abducted by aliens who previously abducted puff the magic dragon who by the way is a member of the alien space fleet.

He'd be in fugly forums in no time posting about the weather. The man killed a kid, and planned to do so. If the old man feels that justice was served then he can argue that in court. It'll be up to the jury now. If the jury feels it was justice then they can invoke jury nullification. If not, then the old man will do time.

Joeslogic

03-22-2006, 11:01 PM

I try Smiles honestly. I suppose if he just gave up trying on his yard. Lay down on the walk by his mailbox to be a doormat for all the kids in the neighborhood to simply shit on at their leisure and for their enjoyment. Then the kids may get bored with terrorizing the old man. Is that the answer though, I think not? There is no justice in that.

I proposed an alternative in my last post that seems like a middle ground approach.

A chemical lobotomy would free the old man of dealing with his hassle and leave his parents to deal with him as an invalid for the rest of his life. Hell that�s poetic justice.

smurfslappa

03-22-2006, 11:04 PM

Fuck it, the guy blasted the kid. People get blasted for less every day. Shit, I just blasted two mexicans for not having to pay taxes on their illegal labor. Then I went to McDonalds, through the drive-thru, and found out they got my order wrong so I had to drive all the way back and you better believe they got a blasting. I got home and had my bag of food in one hand and my gun in the other and rather than put one of the two under an armpit and reach into my pocket for the keys I just blasted the lock. Fuck it.

chester grape

03-22-2006, 11:06 PM

Yeeee-HAAAAAWWWWWW!

Joeslogic

03-22-2006, 11:06 PM

Dio said He'd be in fugly forums in no time posting about the weather.

And I laughed my ass off, for just a sec though cause then Dio said
The man killed a kid, and planned to do so. If the old man feels that justice was served then he can argue that in court. It'll be up to the jury now. If the jury feels it was justice then they can invoke jury nullification. If not, then the old man will do time.

Unfortunatly true and thats a real bummer.

chester grape

03-22-2006, 11:08 PM

...Dio said The man killed a kid, and planned to do so. If the old man feels that justice was served then he can argue that in court. It'll be up to the jury now. If the jury feels it was justice then they can invoke jury nullification. If not, then the old man will do time.

Unfortunatly true and thats a real bummer.

Yeah, I think you should be a one-man judge, jury and executioner Joe. Fuck democracy, fuck the majority, fuck common sense.

smiles

03-22-2006, 11:21 PM

i give up......... my points have been stated...... as have yours, and your "comprimise"..... which apparently doesn't include being an adult...... or having common sense.... patience or any other character trait that's essential in sustaining a society........... on another note, since you seem to recognise that this was a minor would be ok if he shot a 10 year old that did what we're all speculating this kid did? how about 8 years old? 5?

diogenes

03-22-2006, 11:26 PM

I think the bottom line is this is a tragedy all around. The old man got pushed too far. He's now going to pay for his actions, since the rest of his life he's going to know he killed a boy for essentially nothing. The kid, for being an idiot, is now dead. I'm not saying he deserved it, but had he been a little smarter this situation never would have happened. There are no winners in this scenario, everyone has lost. What a waste.

chester grape

03-22-2006, 11:26 PM

DrBungle

03-22-2006, 11:36 PM

Call me old fashioned, but I can't see myself, as a parent, doing anything other than burning the dude's house down and then putting a few in the old man.

I'd be insane on grief y'see.

diogenes

03-22-2006, 11:38 PM

Hence the problem of vigilantism(sp?).

Joeslogic

03-22-2006, 11:45 PM

Dio said I think the bottom line is this is a tragedy all around. The old man got pushed too far. He's now going to pay for his actions, since the rest of his life he's going to know he killed a boy for essentially nothing. The kid, for being an idiot, is now dead. I'm not saying he deserved it, but had he been a little smarter this situation never would have happened. There are no winners in this scenario, everyone has lost. What a waste.

Tru dat Dio.

Smiley for what its worth there is my compromise. You make some valid points that I do respect but I do not agree with you as a whole. While I may not be as eloquent and well spoken as some of the theologians you may be studying up there in Canada. And I may have pushed the envelope for dramatic effect but, there may be some if only merely a small kernel of insight that you can walk away with having considered my perspective. That is if you choose to open that Pandora�s Box. I think Dio hopefully has some middle ground we can both agree on.

I just cannot resist.

Chester at least here in the states class warfare has been a successful political tool of the left and its use has affected the ideology of the general opinion very thoroughly. If the kid was the son of a rich billionaire then everyone would agree it�s the kids fault just like my analogy example of me and the project pimp daddy.

diogenes

03-22-2006, 11:52 PM

While I don't think either party is right in this situation, class warfare and all of that are irrelevant. There is a dead kid and an old man who will never live this down. This isn't about class, or left and right, or anything but 2 people who didn't respect each other, and were unable to connect on any kind of meaningful level. The old man saw a punk kid, the punk kid saw a cranky old man. Neither one of them acknowledged the other's humanity. You want to talk about the break-down of civil society, why weren't these 2 involved in each others lives other than to yell at each other. Instead of a neighborhood this was a group of people who held individual lives in close proximity to each other. I really think this is a case of people really seperating themselves too much from there community. The parents should have been closer with their neighbor, and should have known what was going on. The old man should have been involved in the kids life in more ways than just yelling at the kid for crossing his lawn.

It takes a village to raise a child. Where was the village?

chester grape

03-23-2006, 12:06 AM

Joeslogic

03-23-2006, 12:06 AM

We should all go and rent the movie "To Kill a Mockingbird" and learn a little about civility with your neighbors.

Hold on isn't that the book Hinkley was fascinated with?

http://www.archive.org/download/scouteating_0/scouteating.jpg

diogenes

03-23-2006, 12:25 AM

Unfortunately, I think some people are not seeing the gravity of the situation. A human life was lost here. The parents lost a child, the child lost a life, the man lost his respect and dignity, and all for what? I have a feeling that a stronger sense of community would have averted all of this. And that's the part that bothers me the most. None of these people care about each other. When I was a kid my neighbors cared about me, cared about my family. I played in their yards, and when I did something I shouldn't they told my parents. It was a nice little community. Now there are drug dealers hanging around where I used to live, and the only reason they can get away with it is because everyone is "minding their own business". Meaning they don't care about anyone but themselves and their own.

chester grape

03-23-2006, 01:00 AM

Yes. And no.

In the area I live, it used to be full of drug dealers and people minding their own business, but lately a sense of community is emerging as young families move into the area.

I know my neighbours on both sides, as well as at least four other households on our street.

And you're right dio, no one is shooting anyone.

diogenes

03-23-2006, 01:08 AM

It's hard to shoot someone after you've looked them in the eye and seen that they suffer the same human condition that you do.

smurfslappa

03-23-2006, 10:03 AM

That's when a tear comes to your eye, and you both start to put your gun down... and then BAM, you raise yours really quick and shoot him anyways. Realizing he suffers the same human condition that you do, he might of pulled a move like the one you just did only maybe a little while later because you pulled it off first.

phatboy

03-23-2006, 10:41 AM

Unfortunately, I think some people are not seeing the gravity of the situation. A human life was lost here. The parents lost a child, the child lost a life, the man lost his respect and dignity, and all for what?

I have respect and pity for the old guy. He appeared to have tried every sensible solution to resolve the issue with the kid. He made complaints to the parents and the police. No one did anything. The kid had no right to be on that guys 'private property'. Especially after being asked time and time again to stay off the lawn. It didnt just happen one day. The old man wasnt hiding in the bushes and the kid cut across the grass and got shot. The kid came back looking for a fight. The only problem is he brought a knife to a gun fight.

What if the kid had shot the old man? The old man tells the kid to get off his lawn and the kid shoots the old man instead.

That old guy has the right, to protect his property and himself. Its in the constitution.

Now some lame ass jury might see this as some poor kid who was going to the pharmacy to get his moms methadone, but I think once the case comes out it will show how this old man was provoked over time and felt there was no other solution.

All the kid had to do was stay away and he would still be out smoking crack today. But he didnt.

Totalrecall1982

03-23-2006, 04:19 PM

When I was a kid, I fucked with this old man until he lost it one day and he told me he would kill me cuase hes got nothing to lose. Sure enough I never came back in his yard to mess with him. That kid got what was coming to him!

diogenes

03-23-2006, 06:55 PM

I see where your logic is going phatboy. The problem is you have several assumptions that you've made that the article never stated.

It didnt just happen one day.

You're right, the old man planned to shoot the kid when he came back. This didn't just happen one day, it was pre-meditated. Hence the reason he should be charged with 1st degree murder.

The kid came back looking for a fight. The only problem is he brought a knife to a gun fight.

Both unreasonable assumptions. The kid probably would not have wanted to argue with a cranky old man carrying a 4/10 shotgun. Second, the news article never mentioned the kid carrying any sort of weapon, at all. He never threatened the old man with damage to life or limb.

What if the kid had shot the old man? The old man tells the kid to get off his lawn and the kid shoots the old man instead.

The kid didn't shoot the old man, so this is completely irrelevant.

That old guy has the right, to protect his property and himself. Its in the constitution.

Which Article of the Constitution gives you the right to put 2 slugs into a kid for being on your lawn? I don't remember reading that one.

Now some lame ass jury might see this as some poor kid who was going to the pharmacy to get his moms methadone, but I think once the case comes out it will show how this old man was provoked over time and felt there was no other solution.

It doesn't matter if the kid was going to buy poison for the Pope, the guy shot him twice. Over his lawn. What if his homeowners association hadn't approved his plants. If they came by and removed the plants, which they have the legal right to do, would he have had the right to shoot them as well? That's assuming the old man had a homeowners association, but you get the idea. The idea that he was provoked over time and there was no other solution? Doesn't matter, he was not defending anything of nearly equal value to what he destroyed. This wasn't the government encroaching on his property, it was a neighborhood kid.

All the kid had to do was stay away and he would still be out smoking crack today. But he didnt.

No argument about the staying away, but there are countless other ways this situation could have been avoided, the simplest way being this selfish old fuck remembering that he was part of a community, and that community was more important than his lawn.

chester grape

03-23-2006, 07:35 PM

Has anybody ever changed anybody's mind about anything in these forums?*

* With the SPECTACULAR exception of dio's conversion over gun laws, for which I take FULL CREDIT.

diogenes

03-23-2006, 09:16 PM

My own detective work on that should get at least half credit. But you were the push that got that particular stone rolling, so partial credit.

phatboy

03-23-2006, 09:25 PM

Dio

The article said that the old man had made numerous complaints to the parents and the police. Several times. Numerous complaints. Hence it didnt just happen one day. It had been ongoing. The kid was doing it on purpose. The article said the kid was shot when he returned to the old mans house. Not the old man went to the kids house and shot him. The knife to the gun fight was an analogy.

If you move into a neighbor hood and it has a covenance you sign a contract to abide by that covenance when you move in. They wont come over and pull plants. They put leins on your property. I know this cause a co-workers wife is on the committee in his neighborhood and that is how you get results. You warn them, you fine them, when the fine isnt paid, you put a lein on their property. If it is for an uncut yard they will send a grounds crew by to cut the grass, then bill the homeowner. You have to sign the contract when you by the house. You dont sign the covenance you dont get the house.

You're right, the old man planned to shoot the kid when he came back.

Yep when he came back.

Which Article of the Constitution gives you the right to put 2 slugs into a kid for being on your lawn? I don't remember reading that one.

14th amendment "Protection of Property and Agricultural Crops"

So what should the old man have done? He had tried approaching the parents, complained to the police and no resolution was given to him. What else could he have done? Move? Let his yard go to shit?

When do you draw the line in the sand?

chester grape

03-23-2006, 09:29 PM

When do you draw the line in the sand?

Somewhere short, preferably a good deal short, of actually killing anybody.

phatboy

03-23-2006, 09:31 PM

Dont think that I want to high five the old guy for killing the kid. I dont think the kid deserved to die for being a dick to an old man.

But someone please tell me what else the old guy could do.

chester grape

03-23-2006, 09:37 PM

Not again, no.

phatboy

03-23-2006, 09:50 PM

Is that because there is no real solution? That would have satisfied both parties. The old man moves, if he can afford to, he loses. The kids parents whoop his ass to straighten him out and leave the old man alone he is still alive today. I wish the news wires would put out more info on this. He was supposed to have been back in court on wednesday.

smiles

03-23-2006, 09:51 PM

lalaal ok so i knwo i said i wouldn;t be back and all that but...... anyways...... why do u think the police didn;t do anything about his complaints? perhaps they were FRIVOLOUS???

"tha damn kids is runnin arround outside and making a damn ruckus when the hell are you bastards going to do something about this?"

"sir we'll send a car out as soon as we can just be patient."

"listen here you no good brat i was fucking korean whores in the ass before your daddy knew what a cumshot was"

since people love ot pull improbable scenarious out of their ass i thought i'd contribute that little doozy

phatboy

03-23-2006, 09:53 PM

I appreciate that, now i fully understand your point. There are three sides to every story. I guess we can re-visit this when more info is available.

diogenes

03-23-2006, 10:00 PM

U.S. Constitution - Amendment 14
Amendment 14 - Citizenship rights
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Where exactly does it grant the use of lethal force in case of someone crossing property lines?

phatboy

03-23-2006, 10:03 PM

You didnt post the whole thing. There is a whole lot more to that than what is posted.

diogenes

03-23-2006, 10:05 PM

Then post the portion that gives you the right to shoot a 15 year old for being on your lawn.

phatboy

03-23-2006, 10:10 PM

Well here is an excerpt from the second amendment

"every citizen has the right to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, and property"

if you would like me to look up the rest I can.

diogenes

03-23-2006, 10:14 PM

I'm familiar with the second amendment, and it is used selectively at best in most cases.

phatboy

03-23-2006, 10:20 PM

it is used selectively at best in most cases.

On either side of the fence. The whole constitution is used 'selectively at best' its all about interpretation.

The beauty of the constitution. The living document.

diogenes

03-23-2006, 10:24 PM

I'll definitely concede that point. The "necessary and proper" clause specifically comes to mind.

Joeslogic

03-23-2006, 11:09 PM

Smiles wrote: lalaal ok so i knwo i said i wouldn;t be back and all that but...... anyways...... why do u think the police didn;t do anything about his complaints? perhaps they were FRIVOLOUS???

"tha damn kids is runnin arround outside and making a damn ruckus when the hell are you bastards going to do something about this?"

"sir we'll send a car out as soon as we can just be patient."

"listen here you no good brat i was fucking korean whores in the ass before your daddy knew what a cumshot was"

since people love ot pull improbable scenarious out of their ass i thought i'd contribute that little doozy

Thank you! that�s the point I was trying to make.
There is nothing the Old man could possibly do. No cop would take is seriously. Hell a lot of them would like very much to do something but they cannot.
The only solution is a disciplined upbringing. A good old fashioned ass whooping every once in a while. Problem is just to make matters worse society has outlawed this also public schools teachers devote there time to convincing children that they are abused and need to go ahead and tell on their parents. This along with the rest of there brainwashing agenda. They believe it takes a village to raise a child not two heterosexual parents. To them that would be the worst.

chester grape

03-23-2006, 11:25 PM

Christ, Joe, now you're putting words into people's mouths.

He's not with you, he's against you.

*Slowly counts to ten *

See, he's saying that since others are making up unsupported scenarios, he will too. And his has the kid just being a kid. With the guy being a cantankerous old busy-body complaining about a little bit of noise.

But whoever is "right" about the events that transpired, upshot is this: The guy SHOT AND KILLED a kid who (as I read it) had not in any way physically threatened him, merely annoyed him and (perhaps) trespassed on his lawn.

Joeslogic

03-23-2006, 11:39 PM

Ok Chester, damn where is your head at? Of course I know that but it doesn�t take away from the fact that he still made my point. The old man was in a no win situation period. It is not right that a man should be in a no win situation. Hell, it�s not right that kids do not respect their elders around here these days.

What about the chemical lobotomy idea? Are you better with that one? Hell I think it sounds great. You know the gift that keeps on giving? Do I need to go over it again?

chester grape

03-23-2006, 11:44 PM

He was not in a no-win situation. Perhaps this is the point over which we ultimately are disagreeing.

See, I think if the kid was holding his wife hostage, at gunpoint, and was threatening to kill her, that would be a no-win situation.

The situation this guy found himself in was one where he didn't like his neighbours, and specifically their (to his mind) bratty kid. There is nothing no-win about it.

Frankly, I find your willingness to take up guns, and start shooting the shit out of people as a solution to interpersonal problems, bizarre, irrational, and frightening.

Joeslogic

03-24-2006, 01:23 AM

Frankly, I find your willingness to take up guns, and start shooting the shit out of people as a solution to interpersonal problems, bizarre, irrational, and frightening.

Actually like I said the chemical lobotomy idea was admittedly better.

Secondly I do feel sorry for the kid. I hate his attitude and actions, as time heals all wounds I tend to be more sympathetic. But the direction at which I place the blame never changes.

It was squarely the kids fault given all the facts I so far have.

See, I think if the kid was holding his wife hostage, at gunpoint, and was threatening to kill her, that would be a no-win situation.

True and going through life for just one more minute being a doormat for some snot nosed punk to find amusement is definitely a loosing situation also.

diogenes

03-24-2006, 01:28 AM

He could have just let the kid be. There's an option. If he wasn't out there yelling at the kid the kid never would have yelled back. Another way of solving the problem.

phatboy

03-24-2006, 07:19 AM

Martin opened fire from his house and then, according to police, walked up to the wounded teen and pulled the trigger again at close range, killing him. Martin has been charged with murder.

The family of a 15-year-old Union Township boy who was shot to death Sunday is afraid of the suspect, who has in the past threatened their lives, prosecutors said at a bond hearing Thursday.

Police said Martin fired twice at Mugrage with a .410 gauge shotgun. Mugrage was hit in the back.

Okay. I cant argue for the old guy no more. He will answer questions next week, so we dont know his side of the story but I dont think it is much different from this. The kid was going back to his house to get a video game.

smiles

03-24-2006, 11:40 AM

True and going through life for just one more minute being a doormat for some snot nosed punk to find amusement is definitely a loosing situation also.

goddamn joe you have some serious personal issues you need to work out before you turn 60

P.S. i WISH that the story HAD happened the way u described..... (minus the kid being killed)

Joeslogic

03-24-2006, 12:03 PM

The Age wrote:
Martin opened fire from his house and then, according to police, walked up to the wounded teen and pulled the trigger again at close range, killing him. Martin has been charged with murder.

Cincinatti Times wrote:
The family of a 15-year-old Union Township boy who was shot to death Sunday is afraid of the suspect, who has in the past threatened their lives, prosecutors said at a bond hearing Thursday.

Police said Martin fired twice at Mugrage with a .410 gauge shotgun. Mugrage was hit in the back.

See the problem here? Apparently the parents are extremely irresponsible as well as dishonest.

smurfslappa

03-24-2006, 12:33 PM

Maybe I'm stupid. Where's the dishonesty?

phatboy

03-24-2006, 12:38 PM

The old man has documented cases of complaining on the boy and his family. The kids parents have no such evidence. "They fear for their lives because he has threatened their lives" Well did they call the police?

Someone threatens my life, bullshit or not, Im calling the cops. So when the dumbass tries and I beat him with a golf club I can say "See that idiot has been threatening me and tried to kill me. So I whooped his ass with a golf club"

Thats the shady part. Cause had they complained and called the cops the media would have been all over that shit.

Joeslogic

03-24-2006, 12:42 PM

Seems it was pretty obvious to me Phat I guess people only see what they want to.

I mean there is also the point that if they were scared of the old man why did they not discourage the kid from terrorizing him?

Also if they were afraid then they were irresponsible and neglectful not to have done something.

They are liars and shitass parents also.

smiles

03-24-2006, 02:10 PM

nice so now we define terror as....... talking shit?? would that qualify the kid for a C.I.A. interrogation? this is ludacris

phatboy

03-24-2006, 02:29 PM

I would like to recall my vote though. The guy shot him in the back and then followed him and shot him again.

Thats just cold and calculating.

Joeslogic

03-24-2006, 03:21 PM

Your play on words gets you no where Smiley except to expose your disregard for what was factually said and what you can spin was said.

KERRY: �there is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the�of�the historical customs, religious customs. Whether you like it or not�

Was Kerry trying to say our troops were terrorists? Because the media went out of there way to dispel this assumption after his classless remark.

smurfslappa

03-24-2006, 03:48 PM

Damn it Joe, you're lucky my gun doesn't know how to read.

smiles

03-24-2006, 07:39 PM

i give up.... now joe can write how i have no comebacks to his points and how shutting him out is what the liberal media has taught me to do when confronted with the truth......

diogenes

03-24-2006, 10:58 PM

Joe sounds very much like a character from "12 Angry Men".

smiles

03-25-2006, 11:11 AM

http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/1916.html

XerxesX

03-25-2006, 04:18 PM

There must be thousands of us troopers versed in terror-tactics. Anti-guerilla, supression etc.

I dont think Kerry was calling names. US politicians have other ways to comit suicide.
As a matter of fact. Joe knows that Kerry did not intend to anger the military families. Nor the support -system around the manufacture and controll of WMDs, arms and armor.

One good reason to support the war would be the creation of jobs inside the us.
The growth in US economy stems from the production, sale and use of weapons.
It is the danger of the military-industrial complex taking over the politickin ( Like Truman warned ). It gets harder and harder to reverse to democracy.,

Joeslogic

03-26-2006, 10:57 AM

That was my point Kerry misspoke and some right wing pundits jumped on it. But they did not get much from only preaching to the choir as they say. People on the right were already there. The left did not want to hear it because they knew better.

Which is the same about the misquote from Smiley.

diogenes

03-26-2006, 07:00 PM

What does that have to do with an old man shooting a 15 year old kid?

XerxesX

03-27-2006, 10:09 AM

Dio wrote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does that have to do with an old man shooting a 15 year old kid?

If Kerrys stratagem is the teen-punk that wants his videogame, while "some right wing pundits" is the old mans logo. Behind wich lurks republican dragons. Then the shooting is a symbol for the failed democrat attempt at shaping the strategy and expenditure post 911.

phatboy

03-27-2006, 10:46 AM

If Kerrys stratagem is the teen-punk that wants his videogame, while "some right wing pundits" is the old mans logo. Behind wich lurks republican dragons. Then the shooting is a symbol for the failed democrat attempt at shaping the strategy and expenditure post 911.

Did you 'wake and bake' this morning? Its just a pissed off old guy that cant afford his viagra prescription anymore. Kerry is a douche bag. Not even a lemon scented one. His wife is a retard, lucky she has money, and their daughter has nice tits.

diogenes

03-27-2006, 10:54 AM

That is actually one XerxesX most clearly and concisely written posts ever. It actually was within striking distance of having something to do with the conversation at hand as well. Dare I say he's made progress?

phatboy

03-27-2006, 11:08 AM

Oh sorry.

Joeslogic

03-28-2006, 12:04 AM

You clowns! I was fairly certain Xerx meant to post that comment on the Osama thread and put it here by mistake now I'm just confused.

diogenes

03-28-2006, 06:41 AM

No, I'm pretty sure XerX put that post exactly where he wanted it. Are you under the impression it would have made more sense if he had put it in the Osama forum?

Joeslogic

03-28-2006, 10:40 AM

My fault actually the last three post on page 7 explaine it and Xerx was on topic for hte most part.

Totalrecall1982

04-04-2006, 01:55 PM

Of all the post on fugly I can identify with Joeslogic and his point of view on things the most. The parents should not have allowed that kid to keep disrespecting the elder.

chester grape

04-04-2006, 07:47 PM

Of all the post on fugly I can identify with Joeslogic and his point of view on things the most. The parents should not have allowed that kid to keep disrespecting the elder.

You bumped this ridiculous thread just to tell us that?

Totalrecall1982

04-05-2006, 09:42 AM

I could tell everyone that you're a fruit but we already knew that!

Joeslogic

04-07-2006, 12:16 AM

Thanks, Totalrecall1982 for the backup that is.

But I must warn you have picked the highroad and not the easiest road to follow. What is expected of you here is to say something shocking from time to time, inject some Howard Stern kind of humor into the post. Test the water first with some crack statement making a point that an episode of South Park could easily have been based on. Maybe goto moveon.org to get your talking points. While you are striving to follow the rules of political forum correctness to perfection. Simultaneously attempt to portray yourself as a rebel, alternative, maverick type.

While I would not say this is the stereotypical Fugly post. It does seem to be the safe road to follow.

Whichever you choose I wish you good luck.